Lissener, again.

[Apos]

Nonsense. If you think eggs are great and I don’t like them, and I tell you I think they suck, I am not “attacking” your fondness for eggs. Assuming I am not trying to impose my morality upon you – a huge assumption in this context, I know, but that’s another discussion – and assuming that I have arrived at my morality for sound and independent reasons, my statement of belief is not an “attack” on yours just because you believe the opposite. It does not exist or change in reference to your belief at all, and therefore manifestly is not an attack upon it. You are free to construe it as such, but that hardly strikes me as my problem.

You are confused. Unless you are a moral relatavist, stating a moral claim is ALWAYS fightin words. That’s because in any system of absolute right and wrong, all moral claims must occupy the same space.

Hobbes thought, as you seem to, that morality was just a synonym for “my opinion about what I like and I don’t like.”

Hume corrected this view, pointing out that, well, it MIGHT well be that morality ultimately boils down into that, but the fact is, when people express something that they call a moral, they MEAN something more than that, utterly regardless of whether they can really support it via some ultimate, incontestable metaethic. To express it as a moral means that they think, at least in principle, that they can. So when someone says that something is wrong, they aren’t trying to merely express an opinion: they are, in effect and BY DEFINITION, expressing the expectation that you and everyone else agree with them.

And if they/you aren’t, then we just aren’t really talking about morality in the first place, we’re just talking about taste and appreciation.

Maybe you are just expressing a matter of taste. In which case, I have no dispute with you, but then you also might want to rethink the use of words like sin and wrong, and so on.

It’s just too bad that your scope of things that you can appreciate and enjoy is artificially limited by something as trivial and mutable as taste. (I used to hate country music, but then I realized that I had nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from learning to like it, and so I did so, and now the world contains even more things that I can enjoy and appreciate)

So what makes it wrong for me to attack your morality but not wrong for you to attack someone else’s?

Uh, nothing. It isn’t wrong to attack a faulty morality, per se. The question is: who’s morality is faulty? We both think the other fellow’s is, and so we both see their expression, as well as their counterattacks, as morally illegitimate. And though we can’t both be right, it is possible that we’re both wrong.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

posted by Denis, formerly PT Smegma

Jodi, unlike Shodan is discussing this matter in good faith.

Smegma: nice cheapshot. Smell Shodan’s blood in the water? He last posted a message into this thread no fewer than two days ago, back on Page Two. That’s pretty sneaky busting in here and mentioning him, hey?

Besides, it’s a cowardly back-handed slap at Jodi, cloaked in flattery.

Let’s let MrVisible hash out his problems with sin, shall we?
MrV, I hope you will pause for a moment and have a look at my (rather lurid) dialog with ResIpsaLoquitor. One of the products of our discussion: he is a Catholic who believes homosexual behavior is a sin, but not homosexuality.

He does not condemn homosexuality or homosexual behavior. In fact, he passes no judgment at all. He leaves that to his God.

I don’t think it’s possible to disagree with this point of view any more than I do, but he has a right to his opinion.

The other product of the discussion: I can’t imagine him ever thinking “sinner,” let alone saying it.

I believe through dialog with rational and respectful people like Res and others, you could get a glimpse into ways to change the minds of the ones who might seek to harm your nephew.

Just food for thought on your quandary, and respectfully, lissener’s.

On preview, I emphasize the words of GR8GUY:

So what makes it wrong for me to attack your morality but not wrong for you to attack someone else’s?

[Denis]

*Originally posted by Mr. B *
**Smegma: nice cheapshot. Smell Shodan’s blood in the water? He last posted a message into this thread no fewer than two days ago, back on Page Two. That’s pretty sneaky busting in here and mentioning him, hey?

Besides, it’s a cowardly back-handed slap at Jodi, cloaked in flattery.**

You idiot.

I started reading this thread tonight. Had I started reading it two days ago, I would have posted the same thing. It wasn’t a “cheapshot” directed at anyone. In case you haven’t noticed, Shodan hasn’t made a habit of discussing these issues in good faith, he just smarmily spews his ideology around. There’s nothing at all “sneaky” about posting my opinion of his debating style on a public message board that he is free to read and respond to.

And what the FUCK are you babbling about with this “cowardly back-handed slap at Jodi, cloaked in flattery?” Is it because I said I disagree with her religious views because I’m an atheist and she’s Christian? Is it because I suggested to MrVisible that he chill out and realize that she could be an ally? Where did I insult her? I know what I wrote, and what I meant when I wrote it, and there were no cheapshots or back-handed slaps directed at anyone.

[MrVisible]

Jodi, when you call my love for my boyfriend sinful, your beliefs have become actions. And those actions I find deeply offensive, and I know that these same actions, by various different people in my childhood, drove me to despair, and nearly to suicide.

The fear I had of violence was a part of my despair; the loneliness contributed as well. But the fact that so much of society felt free to condemn my actions was the worst of it.

You’re trying to tell me that hearing my love for my boyfriend declared to be sinful across the land should not be offensive to me; that I should give it a pass, because after all, it’s just people’s beliefs. I’m telling you: those aren’t beliefs, they’re actions that affect real people in the real world.

According to the American Psychological Association, one of the groups most likely to commit hate crimes against people because of their sexual orientation are:

Ideology assailants report that their crimes stem from their negative beliefs and attitudes about homosexuality that they perceive other people in the community share. They see themselves as enforcing social morals.

The sort of social morals you’re defending.

You can call me sinful for expressing my love to my partner. (Oh, and by the way: calling someone’s actions sinful is condemnation.) There’s no way you’re going to get me to like it. And there’s no way I’m letting you get away with it without reminding you: You’re hurting people. Stop freaking doing it.

So what makes it wrong for you to attack my morality but not wrong for me to attack someone yours?

In this regard, yours is causing much more harm than good. I have no respect for any moral code that can justify that.

[MrVisible]

Oh, and the link for the above quote.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

by PT Smegma

Had I started reading it two days ago, I would have posted the same thing.

Two days ago it wouldn’t have looked like a cheapshot.

In case you haven’t noticed, Shodan hasn’t made a habit of discussing these issues in good faith, he just smarmily spews his ideology around.

No, I don’t follow him around. I did, however, witness Shodan make a comment – if loaded – to lissener, to which MrVisible typed a well-composed, yet illegitimately-heralded reply.

That Shodan chose to not engage MrV is beginning to look like a very wise choice.

[gum]

posted by Jodi

Once again, loudly, for the peanut gallery: There is a difference between beliefs and actions, and if all you’re talking about is beliefs alone, and you have no proof that the beliefs alone are harming you (or anyone), you don’t condemn people based on them – which you’re hardly in a position to do anyway.

There are proofs that ‘beliefs’ are harming gays. How about the beliefs of Nazi Germany, where gays were send to the gas chambers because people believed gay love was sinful.

And what is that last line:** “which you’re hardly in a position to do anyway.” ** supposed to mean?

You are hurting people. Stop that.

[MrVisible]

*Originally posted by Mr. B *
That Shodan chose to not engage MrV is beginning to look like a very wise choice.

I’ll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

And thanks to gum, too.

[Denis]

Mr. B,

First, kindly use my correct name.

Second, looking like, and actually being a cheapshot are very different things.

Third, I don’t follow Shodan around either, but I have witnessed him making plenty of loaded comments, uselessly antagonistic ones.
What’s the deal? You have nothing to say about my supposed “back-handed slap at Jodi”? Could it be because it never occurred? Do tell, I’m curious.

[Aslan_of_Narnia]

So, where does this leave Christian gays? Doesn’t knowing homosexuality is a sin according to their religion hurt them? Regardless if they’re Christian or not, the fact is that most people would consider them sinful people who’s romantic crux is inherently wrong, propagates a negative attitude towards them. People cannot choose whether they want to be homosexual or not. Somehow that does not compute, especially with Christian gays. They’re expected to either submerge a large chunk of who they are to become pleasing to the others who disagree with it, or go to hell. Why is it so hard to understand that homosexuals ARE people regardless of what sex they’re attracted to, and they deserve better treatment than some people tend to give to them?

I thought Christianity was about love, and trying to be good to your fellow man. I guess that doesn’t apply if you’re screwing someone of the same gender.

[milroyj]

*Originally posted by MrVisible *
**Jodi, when you call my love for my boyfriend sinful, your beliefs have become actions. **

Except that Jodi never said any such thing. This is precisely the point you are either unable or unwilling to grasp.

[g8rguy]

Uh, nothing. It isn’t wrong to attack a faulty morality, per se. The question is: who’s morality is faulty? We both think the other fellow’s is, and so we both see their expression, as well as their counterattacks, as morally illegitimate. And though we can’t both be right, it is possible that we’re both wrong.

Grand, then; such consistency is all one can really ask for, yes?

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

by Denis, formerly PT Smegma

Third, I don’t follow Shodan around either, but I have witnessed him making plenty of loaded comments, uselessly antagonistic ones.

Then why have you remained silent for so long?

You have nothing to say about my supposed “back-handed slap at Jodi”?

I have nothing else to say about it.

[wring]

as some one w/o any clear memory of either poster name, I will say that for some one to repeatedly intentionally insert the prior screen name of a poster lessens my esteem and regard for the poster doing so, rather than the poster who changed their name.

For what that’s worth.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

I appreciate that, wring. It was my misunderstanding of how the vBulletin system works with a name change.

Denis, I apologize.

[Denis]

*Originally posted by Mr. B *
Then why have you remained silent for so long?

Actually, I haven’t remained silent. I have disagreed with him several times on the boards. Many times, another poster has made my point and I feel no need for a “me too” post.

Are you following me around to have an accurate picture of my “silence?”

**I have nothing else to say about it. **

So, I’ll conclude that you misunderstood me and made an incorrect accusation. Big of you to cop to it, you brave, brave man.
Again, what’s the deal with using my old username? Are you trying to tie me to my banning? There’s no need too, you know, it’s there for all to see, as is my subsequent apology to Scotticher in particular, and the board in general. I understand that many posters are understandably leery of me because of my behavior that led to that banning. Perfectly normal. So what’s your problem?

[Denis]

Mr. B, I accept your apology.

Peace

[Aslan_of_Narnia]

*Originally posted by milroyj *
**Except that Jodi never said any such thing. This is precisely the point you are either unable or unwilling to grasp. **

She indicates it, but not explicitly. If she says that homosexuality is a sin, she is saying “Your love for your boyfriend is sinful” just by stating it.

[milroyj]

*Originally posted by Aslan of Narnia *
**She indicates it, but not explicitly. If she says that homosexuality is a sin, she is saying “Your love for your boyfriend is sinful” just by stating it. **

AFAIK, Jodi never said “homosexuality is a sin”. That said, I would not presume to speak for other posters, so I will not continue down that line.

In my opinion though, someone saying “homosexual activity is a sin” is NOT the same as someone saying “Your love for your boyfriend is sinful.”

[Leaper]

milroyj, but isn’t “homosexual activity” the expression of “your love for your boyfriend” (at least insofar as any activity that’s remotely sexual is)? Doesn’t that just lead to “you can have feelings, as long as you don’t do anything about it”? Isn’t that just “stay in the closet” in a different form? How can that not lead to the same result as just out and saying “your love for your boyfriend is sinful,” even if the two statements don’t technically say the same thing?