Why the hell can't some of you accept a differing opinion on homosexuality?

The BBQ Pit
1

I noticed in the Congratulations Straight Supremacists thread that some folks here can not tolerate a disapproval of homosexuality. In particular, Debaser posted that he was against gay marriage because he thought it was evolutionarily unsound or against the purpose of life according to his beliefs (or something along those lines). He has said that he has not shown hatred towards gays, or any abuse towards them, that he considers it just another defect such as asthma or baldness or whatever. Whether or not this position is sound (and wolfstu sure put a dent in it) is not the issue here. What I have a problem with is the vitriol that was spewed at Debaser simply for having a different opinion on the correctness of homosexuality. I don’t really care to dig up the quotes (as they are evident in the linked thread, page 2-3), but he was called ‘human trash’ among other things.

Why?

Debaser said himself that he would treat his gay children just as compassionately as his straight ones, and that he even has a gay friend. If he disagrees with the concept along some ideological ground, and even opposes the concept of gay marriage, why abuse him so? Or if someone is morally opposed to marriage (for religious or whatever reasons), why does that person get so insanely vilified by some people?

Now, I personally support gay rights 100%, and am saddened that gay marriage is STILL not legal in the USA. However, just because someone thinks that homosexuality is a sin doesn’t make them a bad person. If they recognize the humanity in homosexuals and don’t mistreat them, why shouldn’t they be allowed their views? I mean, some people think eating meat is wrong. Why should the person who considers homosexuality to be immoral be condemned so much more than those who consider meat-eating to be immoral?

We all have our moral judgments on random things, and it doesn’t really matter where they come from, be it religion or something else entirely. The point is, we’re never going to agree on morals, but we can agree on tolerance and compassion. If someone does demonstrate tolerance and compassion, I think attacking them personally for their moral position on X is wrong.

I think the ideal situation for America would be for the government to stop letting religious morals enter into laws, which I believe is the guiding motivation for not allowing same-sex marriages. Many American Christians would probably think worshipping Bhudda is morally wrong, but don’t support the banning of it. If only that same separation of religious morals and secular laws could be applied to homosexuality as well!

Going back to Debaser, I guess there is one intolerant thing he said in his controversial post; he is not for legalizing same-sex marriage. But what I take issue with is not his ideological position, but his willingness to use this position to deny equal rights to others who do not share this view. And this, I think, is the crux of my half-hearted rant. Arguing against Debaser for not wanting equal marriage rights based on his ideology is perfectly fine. Heck, even arguing against his moral position is perfectly fine. However, attacking his worth as a human being for having a moral opinion different than your own is just plain stupid; it’s bullying. If Debaser had stopped showing human compassion to people because of his moral judgment, then yea, flame on. But Debaser has not, and the flames have been totally overboard.

I mean, let’s use the “Everyone in the World” test: If everyone in the world who considered homosexuality to be wrong fully supported gay rights and treated gays with the same compassion and tolerance as everyone else, isn’t that enough?

Yes, I do recognize that the refrain of “homosexuality is wrong” does hurt gays everywhere. However, it is not ever feasible to get everyone to agree with your moral position. For example, I have a friend who thinks I’m going to hell because I quit Christianity. She does try to convert me from time to time (usually quite humorous, as she tries to be so subtle), but never does she fail to treat me with respect, despite her view that I am living in sin. All we really expect from each other is tolerance and compassion, not moral conversion. And we’re very good friends for crying out loud. So why do some people expect everyone to be converted to their moral position (that homosexuality is moral)? Why not just aim your sights at getting equal rights under the law and the recognition of humanity from society? Why does there have to be such viciousness against those who think homosexuality is wrong?

NOTE: I suppose that some may say that moral relativism doesn’t really work; would I make the same argument for respecting someone’s belief that murder and rape were moral? The difference here is that those moral positions go against the very tolerance and compassion that exists in the society I want to live in. I really don’t want everyone to be clones of each other. Varying moral positions are OK, so long as they aren’t used to violate people’s humanity.

2

Well, I think it all boils down to what you feel the “cause” of homosexuality is in the first place. If you feel that it is a choice that some people make, then disapproving of homosexuality should be afforded the same respect as disapproving of, say, people who enjoy S&M/bondage. Different strokes for different folks, and everybody is entitled to an opinion, right?

If, however, you feel that homosexuality is something people are born with and have no control over, then disapproving of homosexuality is akin to, say, disapproving of “Blacks” or “Jews” and brands the disapprover as an evil person right up there with Hitler and the KKK.

Obviously, the majority of the people here on the boards are in the latter camp, and feel it is dangerous to society as a whole for anybody to an express an opinion that condems an entire group for something over which they cannot control and which makes up an integral part of their being.

Just a thought…

Barry

3

I do think the trigger fingers are more than a little itchy on this subject.
I was bought up in an environemnt where sertain homophobic views were taken as granted. It took a long time, and many small changes to get to my current position which I hope is free of homophobia. When I see such strong attacks on people who have homophobic beliefs I cannot but look back to my own experience and realise that if I was treated in such a way in my early days of learning tollerance it would have been hugely counterproductive and I probably would not have made the change away from the Homophobia that I had.

4

godzillatemple I am not sure being into bondage is a choice, many practitoners (myself included, though I am only a mild practitioner) can trace their prefferences to early childhood, deffinately pre teenager. But that is beside the point, and anyone interested in a discussion of this please email me and I’ll start a different thread.

5

I don’t think they’re talking about people like that-I have many friends who think homosexuality is wrong-but, it’s more like hey, ‘that’s something you have to deal with yourself. I’m still your friend and still there for you.’

It would be like if you think pre-marital sex is wrong, and you know your friends have sex without be married. You don’t tell them they’re going to hell. Not all people agree on all things, if you get right down to it.

See, I don’t get what the big deal is with those who think it is wrong-if it WAS, wouldn’t homosexuals only be hurting hemselves?

6

lissener should be along to call you a homophobe shortly.

Regards,
Shodan

7

I think the context of the discussion has a lot to do with the response to people like Debaser in that thread. The thread was started because MrVisible was frustrated and angry at watching his teenaged cousin struggle with disapproval and hostility based only on something he can’t change about himself and shouldn’t have to. This is not an uncommon experience, and it is sustainable in large part because of the widespread support for the idea that homosexuality is inherently wrong, or at the very least worse than being heterosexual. So the frustration was in large part directed to the people who help create the environment that leads to such suffering among gay teens.

However, the only people who were directly challenged and insulted were the ones who popped into the thread to volunteer their support for homosexuality being wrong. The members in that thread weren’t out interrogating random people on the street, demanding to know their views on homosexuality and then blasting them if they didn’t agree.

To me, it’s no different than coming into a thread about a teenaged relative being bullied and teased for being overweight only to say you think fat people are gross and shouldn’t be so fat. Would you honestly expect the people in that thread to just respect the differing opinion, and not take it as an attack? Context matters.

8

For me the problem is not when people merely have differing opinions, but you identified the issue in the OP. When one person has an individual opinion that is one thing, but when they make laws that prevent others from being treated equally that is the problem.

If someone thinks all women should be at home and not working, I can have a different opinion, that is, that he is wrong and stupid and women should be allowed to work if they want. So far, so good, we both have our own opinions. When he pushes legislation through that prevents me from working, then there is a problem. Now that women have laws to help them be treated fairly, it is easy for me to dismiss those with opinions different than mine. Before those laws were enacted, those opinions would have been much more threatening to me, because they prevented me from having actual rights.

Many people have strong reactions to people who oppose homosexual marriage because of this. It isn’t just that people are against it. They of course will disagree on that and of course are going to react when people tell them they are morally wrong (I don’t know many people who enjoy being told they are morally wrong). It is because they are prevented from getting married like everyone else.

Maybe after gay marriage is legalized people will be ‘more tolerant’ of those who think it is wrong. I for one hope it will happen so we can find out. It is hard to be tolerant of the opinions of people who are working to keep laws in place that harm you personally.

9

Meh, I don’t know. It depends: a lot of people are wont to overestimate just how compassionate they are towards Queer people, like someone who thinks giving up their seat to a black person on the metro makes them not a racist.

When debaser says he would treat a gay child with as much compassion as a straight child, does he seriously mean he would never let slip his opinion that homosexuality is wrong, even before he knows the child is gay? Because that’s what that would mean, as a minimum.

“Compassion” for gays among anti-gay people, too, is often a code-word for trying to get us to join ex-gay groups, or at least be aware of how ‘sinful and ungodly our lifestyle is’.

There’s no compassionate way to tell someone they’re depraved.

So, it’s conceivable that debaser could be perfectly nice to the individual gay people he meets - never treat them unequally from heterosexuals, treat their partners with respect, refrain from informing them that they’re unnatural and twisted. It could happen, I suppose. It just doesn’t have a lot of precedent.

10

  1. In the linked thread, the OP held a fear that a gay child would be picked on, harassed, and perhaps even physically hurt. Fear and violence are two of the reasons that gay people are so hard-core about the “agenda.” Its a matter of survival. I wish I could link to that thread where folks shared their personal experiences with gay-bashing…anyone got it?

  2. Homophobia within the gay psyche. This is something I’ve dealt with, and watched friends deal with. Being gay is like being imperfect, like being a failure. If its a choice, I have no self-control. If its genetic, I am a freak whose type that will be exterminated with gene therapy. Since I’m an only child, I’m robbing my parents the opportunity of having a “normal/whole/perfect” child, and robbing them of grandchildren, and saddling them with the shame of having a gay child–which will make them feel like failures, too, for “causing” this. This underlying homophobia can make me reactionary, and overly-sensitive/defensive.

  3. Ignorance. In this case, I agree with Bippy. So many conversations over the years have gone something like this:

Friend: “You’re gay? But I hate gay people!”
(time passes)
Friend: “You’re my first gay friend, and I acknowledge that you are respectable and not scary.”
(time passes)
Friend: “You’re gay? What’s it like!? What’s sex like? How do you feel about marriage /military /Anne Heche/ Please PLEASE tell me about Anne Heche.”
(time passes)
Friend: “::non-issue::”

Maybe this goes back to 1). I have realized that just because my friends are ignorant, intensely evangelical, or whatever, they’re not going to hurt me. And dialogue can begin.

  1. Complacancy. There are days when being gay is a-ok. The Republican president is continuing our protected federal rights, the gay pride parades are so prevalent they’re becoming passe, our mom plays the pronoun game during her weekly call, and Fred Phelps is the only person in America who hates queers.

Then someone like Debaser comes along. Reasonably intelligent and educated on the subjects at hand, sympathetic to the cause, kind to gay people, and yet… hold anti-gay views that don’t fit into the “happy happy joy joy” world view. Its surprising. Shocking. And I think some of the bile comes from the emotional jolt, not reason.

We can deal with people like Fred Phelps. How do we deal with good people? Gentle people?

11

As a straight man who grew up in what is essentially a homophobic and iniquitous society, I had to do a lot of soul searching and growing to eradicate the homophobia that I picked up just as cultural fallout. Keep this in mind because it is important.

I know the steps, and the “I will treat them with compassion, event though I disagree with homosexuality” or the “they should have equal rights but not special rights” or the “hate crimes don’t really exist” stances are still, in my experience, stances that are under the cloud of homophobia.

For me, it took my best friend coming out to me for me to even begin to address the issue. I was lucky in that he was very patient with me and allowed me to go through the stages of acceptance of who he was, without abandoning me.

And I watched him harassed, bashed and generally made miserable because of the way that he loves. Sometimes I was there to defend him, and sometimes I was just a shoulder to cry on later. That is fucked. And honestly, anything less that full acceptance and full access to all of societies institutions for people like my friend to me in Neolithic thinking and is no different than the separate water fountains during the Jim Crow days.

So when I see people that claim to accept homosexuality, but just don’t want to see the institution of marriage degraded any more than it already is, I see a mealy mouthed piece of crap that is too afraid to see what he is really thinking and who (under slightly different circumstances) would be the one throwing the beer bottle out of the car window.

12

If you can recoginize that this hurts gay people on a personal level and further that the constant repitition of this phrase (in so far as it influences others) can do damage to the cause of advancing equal gay rights, then how can you believe that a person who believes this (and posts this) could be demonstrating “tolerance and compassion”.

I would say, no, it isn’t enough, and further, it’s totally illogical. When people cling to the belief (or the moral judgment, as you would say) that homosexuality is a “defect” and an “abnormality” as Debaser does, do you really believe that these same people would “fully support gay rights”? Debaser himself disproves this idea by saying that he is against gay marriage.

I find it so amazing that logical, seemingly intelligent people feel that it is acceptable to argue the “correctness” of homosexuality and it makes me sad that the fact that Debaser “even has a gay friend” should be enough for us to lay off him for his opinions.

I’ve seen a lot of these threads around recently and I’ve been so surprised by the amount of posters who think that we should all just agree to disagree on this issue (e.g. I think you are a defective and abnormal sinner and not entitled to equal rights, you think you otherwise - but I won’t kick your ass in the parking lot if I saw you kiss your boyfriend so why can’t we just leave it at that) that I was prompted to post after lurking for over a year. Go easy on me.

13

Amen to the OP. I couldn’t have written it better myself.

And there are plenty of other examples of people on the SDMB who have an unpopular point of view and continually get razzed for it (i.e., Svt4Him), which I think is shameful.

14

Oh, please. This board is the most tolerant one I’ve ever seen. I just got banned from a fundie board for “defending Islam” (I said not every Muslim is a terrorist).

15

Emme the Great, welcome to the boards!

I especially enjoyed:

Just the right mix of bitterness and sardonic humor. Well done. :slight_smile:

16

You seem to be unable to tell the difference between an unpopular view and one which is inherently harmful to other human beings. How sad for you.

17

*BinaryDrone: I just wanted to say that I loved your post. Very well said.

18

Ack. Stupid coding.

By the way, just to be clear, I was referring to your original post.

19

I try very hard not to be judgemental when I discuss things like this with people. I understand that to a lot of people, it’s a general issue, not a specific one.

When somebody says (and I have heard both of these things) “gays should not be allowed to marry.” or even “gays should not be allowed to live.” They are making a statement that is to them, general.
I think that what the people making the statement need to understand is that to me, it is not general. It is specific. They just said to me “YOU should not be allowed to marry.” or “YOU should not be allowed to live.”

You have to admit, if someone suddenly came over to you and dispassionately stated that they didn’t think that you should be allowed the same rights and considerations that everyone else has, you would be a bit surprised. It makes one act defensively.
A “what the hell are you talking about?” would not be out of the question.

I try very hard to not take it personally, but it is very difficult. It makes me very sad and somewhat angry that someone who would not even be affected one way or another by my having rights equal to their own has decided that I should not.
And, really, that is my sticking point. I have not asked everyone to ‘turn gay,’ I have not asked that everyone like me, or that I have any rights or considerations that you would not grant a random stranger without a second thought.

It’s very hurtful to have someone say to you “if it were up to me, even though it would not impact me in any way to give you equality, I would prefer that you not have it.”

20

Thanks, it took a lot of work and willingness to change and grow to get there.