For crying out loud, what's the point of the homosexuality debates??

The BBQ Pit
1

Jeez, people. Get the frick over it, already.

Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn’t approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people…nor would 1,000,000 people…nor would 10,000,000 people. In case you haven’t tested the political and social winds lately, lick your finger and shove it into the air and take a look: homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

The states are not going to start enforcing the sodomy laws still on the books simply because some people continue to advance an anti-homosexual position. Senators and attorneys general aren’t about to switch sides on gay marriage because His4Ever posted some remarks you don’t like. It ain’t frickin’ gonna happen. There is not going to be a backsliding in recognition of homosexual liberties. It’s so mainstream that straight people (still 90% of us) are making it a top 5 primetime show, and many of the biggest fans of that show that I know personnally are devoutly religious. It just isn’t an issue anymore.

A few people will always hold a contrary position. It’s a fact of life. In this case, it’s a moral judgment. It’s not like they’re saying 2+2=5, it’s a wee bit subjective. The hatred and vitriol that has flown from people’s keyboards this past week is astonishing.

If you’re ever at the point at which the mere expression of a contrary opinion is seen as so extremely threatening that you must supress it with vigilance, you might want to take a look at the strength of your own position…in this case, I doubt your position is so weak that you need present the defense that you have. All that the discussion of this past week or so has accomplished is to demonstrate new heights of personal enmity and bitterness.

In a free society as we have today, wherein personal liberties are generally respected, an idea or thought isn’t dangerous. Heck, a solid 50 years of Ashcroft still couldn’t change that. “Fighting ignorance” hasn’t worked so far, it’s not going to work. Why waste time and effort, and only antagonize people further? This latest debate is only one of a long series of such issues, debates that simply will not reslove themselves. Tough luck. Find something else to talk about, because continuing to press the issue is just verbal self-fellation…you’re free to talk on and on about it, but if it isn’t getting results, why bother to continue?

2

Tell that to Matt Shepherd

3

And why hasn’t the Employment Non-Discrimination Act passed Congress? Why did the Defense of Marriage Act pass so quickly?

Houston, 1998:

Miami’s non-discrimination laws narrowly escaped repeal (53% voting to preserve the law).

Nope. Not quite as rosy as you seem to think.

4

I think the OP is on some leve valid, but here’s the thing for me personally:

I have no problem with gay people; I never have. At the risk of incurring bitter laughs at an old chestnut of a cliche – one of my best friends is gay.

And I talk more about my religious faith here on this board than I ever do IRL; IRL, no one gives a shit what I believe.

But here on the Board, when I identified myself as a Christian, and as one who does not believe being gay is wrong, or a sin, or something to alienate one from God, I was asked: Why do you not speak up? When these people try to say that this is what your religion believes – that there is no place in it for people God created as gay, why don’t you say something? Is not silence on some level agreement?

So now I speak up. When someone like HIS4EVER or JERSEYDIAMOND or whomever says “God condemns you to hell for this,” I say “NO, He doesn’t.” When someone says “Christians believe this,” I say, “NO, we don’t.” And frankly it gets a little tiresome, but I feel like I have an obligation to not allow my religion to be co-opted by the “others.” They have no more right to the name than I do, and no more right to declare what it means or stands for.

And I never – never – have to deal with that in real life. Though I’d like to think I’d have the courage to do so if required, based on what I’ve learned here.

But the point of the homosexuality debates for me is to not allow one voice to say what Christianity is or does or believes. And I promise to shut up about it just as soon as they do. But until they do – how can I?

5

Well, these debates have led me to rethink my ideas about homosexuality and homosexual acts. It might not be a resolution, but I’ve thought about things once more. Does revisiting the issue and rethinking it count for any useful benefit of all these discussions?

6

Well, thanks for letting me know. I guess I can just stop caring that the people who don’t approve of my sexuality online also don’t approve of it in real life, and rest assured that their beliefs are not hurting anyone in person. Because, after all, that’s the important thing, right? Forget the community I’ve grown to call a home in the past two+ years. It’s just the internet. It’s not like I have any feelings invested in this place:rolleyes:

Oh wow. In case the first part of your paragraph wasn’t assuming enough, let’s take an argument and drive it to a vastly reaching conclusion.

In case it wasn’t apparent enough to you before when (I’m sure) you read every thread on this subject both in GD and the Pit and elsewhere:

This is my LIFE. My sexuality is part of my LIFE. It’s not a fucking hobby. I don’t say “Hey, I think I’ll be bisexual tonight during Will and Grace. My living room could use the redecoration.” And for the past two and a half years (on this board and others) I have repeatedly seen people bash, mock, belittle, dehumanize, degrade, push aside and downplay my rights as a human being because of who I love.

You see how accepting that makes you of those people. I see people who’ve been fighting this fight longer than I have been alive and I almost wonder how they can keep calm when they get attacked again for something as base and core in them as anything else.

Well, that’s a lovely thought except that it’s not true by any stretch, or that thread on gaybashing experiences would have posts about things that had happened ten years ago or twenty years ago.

Newsflash for you: it is still not safe to be gay, much less openly gay, in this country.. I got pelted with rocks and sticks by CHILDREN because they THOUGHT I was gay. I wasn’t holding hands with a boyfriend or kissing someone in the privacy of my own home. They perceived that I might be gay and acted on that perception.

What the fuck cave are you living in where it’s safe for all gay people to be open about their sexuality? It’s a lovely thought but it’s simply not true.

States DO enforce the laws, you ignorant piece of rat shit. And those laws that are repealed take far too much effort considering they criminalize private acts of love between human consenting adults. What the fuck “Happy News” television station or newspaper have you been watching?

Not specifically because of her, but in case you hadn’t noticed, she isn’t alone in her beliefs (or lack of ability to defend them) or the shock level of some of her posts would be a lot higher.

If it isn’t an issue, why the fuck are you raising it? Talk about a paradox within itself…

They are saying that an orientation is a choice, and a sinful choice at that, and that it is unnatural and an abomination and that those of us who “live that lifestyle” are going to burn in hell for loving people.

Sorry if I can’t accept that viewpoint. No, really:rolleyes:

My, but we are a selective reader, are we not? Or is it just all the big words that trip you up?

Fighting ignorance hasn’t worked so far?

Have you read anything on this message board, or do you just look at the posts with all the pretty colors and smileys?

Mmm, self-fellation …

Oh, sorry, were you saying something important?

We have made strides in terms of acceptance and tolerance and education. Look at the posts by dreamer as evidence of that.

[sub[What is it, stupid person sweeps week here?[/sub]

7

I live in the only city in the US that specifically singles out homosexuals as legitimate targets of discrimination in its charter. Not just “Nope, no protection for the homos, sorry,” but “Go right ahead! Discriminate against the motherfuckers! High five!”

Not that I’ve participated in any of the debates here or anything, because I have neither the time nor the energy, but still.

8

I’ve probably got no business posting in this thread, because I know little of the subject. I don’t claim to have any gay friends, and AFAIK the only gay people I know are the ones I “know” from this message board. But I do know this: Rex, you’re fulla’ shit with this statement: "homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear. "
Less than a year ago, a young man who lived about 30 miles from me was killed by two others and his body was burned. Why? To quote the killers: “He was a damn queer.”
And don’t start some crap about that being “An Alabamar Thang.” Pick up any big city newspaper and you’re likely to see a similar story.
If you’re going to jump into something as controversial as your above statements, you better put a little more thought into it, and do some reality checks first.
If discussion on a public message board serves to enlighten the populace, then it’s not a bad thing.

9

Oh, that explains why queers can hold hands with their partners anywhere.

Oh, wait…

10

You know, maybe the arguments may change the mind of a few lurkers…all you and the rest of us are seeing are the outspoken straight supremacists.

I think it’s good that we argue about it. If it changes the mind of one straight supremacist, that’s better than nothing at all.

And as for you saying it’s “publically accepted”, HAHAHA! Try telling that to one outspoken homophobe here in Hawaii who is now trying to run for office. The worst part is that he’s getting a LOT of support. That scares the fuck out of me.

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It’s just taking longer than we thought.

The only places I’ve lived in the United States are San Francisco and New York, probably the most gay tolerant places in the U.S. And I think you’re living in fantasyland.

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Hell, I live half an hour from DC and I still encounter straight supremacists and people who have all sorts of misguided (though I have been trying for years to educate them) thoughts on non-heterosexuality.

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One TV show, featuring completely stereotypical gay characters, and we’ve achieved equality. I’m sure the blacks were all thrilled when they were liberated by Amos n’ Andy, too.

In my city, which is pretty gay-friendly, a man walked up behind a college student and stabbed him in the back, because he was standing in front of a gay coffee shop. That was two years ago; this year, a man had the crap beaten out of him in front of a gay bar. The only reason that particular incident even made the papers, months later, is that the gay-basher was a fireman, and the son of the local fire chief. Just two months ago, a man was beaten to death in one of the local gay neighborhoods. No one has been caught, no motive is suspected, but the newspaper accounts all mention that the victim was wearing multiple earrings.

I’ve found the man I want to love for the rest of my life, and I’m going to marry him. Know what that means? Nothing. At least, it means nothing to society. No joint insurance rate, no married tax filing (a significant problem, as we’re buying a house together), no inheritance rights…

We argue this, not because it’s fun, because believe me, it’s not, but because we have to. Every time a straight supremacist pops up, spouting the same old nonsense, we have to be there, to make sure nobody believes that they actually have a valid point. It’s like some horrendous nightmare version of Whack-a-Mole. Homophobia’s primary cause is ignorance, and if we want to eliminate homophobia from our national agenda, we have to make sure to educate wherever possible.

I’ve heard from several people on this board that the debates that go on about homosexuality have helped them to re-examine their perspective on this issue. For me, personally, it helps to have heard all the arguments that straight supremacists can muster (over and over and over and over…) and to have refined, practiced rebuttals prepared. This has helped me a few times in real life discussions as well.

I’m glad you’re under the impression that this isn’t an issue anymore; that shows that we’re making progress. But we haven’t won, not by a long shot. We can still lose our jobs, lose our homes, lose our children, to our own government, motivated only by ignorance and prejudice. We still can’t openly serve in our military. Just two days ago, voters turned down a gay rights bill in Florida. As much as we’d like to stop fighting, we can’t.

14

For crying out loud, what’s the point of the debates??

When the fuck did you become chief censor around here RexDart?

As for the rest of your rant… get fucking real! Anywhere in the world today society pretty much leaves homo/bi-sexual people with one of three options…[ol][li]Shut up and stay in the closet to some degree, living a life of lies or half-truths.[/li][li]Seek out the gay community and stick to it.[/li][li]Fight for your right to be what you are and suffer the consequences.[/ol]In most parts of the world options 2 and 3 are connected with risk to life and limb. The US is far up on the list of the most gay-intolerant societies of the world.[/li]
Sparc

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I can’t find this online, though I know it’s there because I’ve seen it linked before, but could anyone post a link to the ratner length list of rights denied American citizens because they are gay? I think there are still over a thousand of them…

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Eh, this whole thing is a passing storm on the boards. It will play out unless people quit feeding it. It’s really no different from the atheism, gun control, abortion, or any other of the fads that can grip the boards from time to time. It’s human nature, and not any different than the news fads we see on TV screaming about shark attacks, child abductions, or the West Nile Virus.

It will pass.

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God help us all if it does.

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Huh? You want it to stay? Sure, the issues shouldn’t be forgotten but they have begun to dominate the pit. There are other things in life.

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If it does pass I hope it will be because of a “We have equal rights! Rah!” post. And I hope that post echoes in the halls of the Chicago Reader (and its assigns and whatnot) for years.

As I said before, to give up this fight is to admit defeat.

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I think he just meant the current rush of homosexuality debates. That will pass when the damn straight supremacists stop coming here to debate. Have any of them ever actually held their own here? Or anywhere, really? I mean, the most coherent argument I’ve heard against homosexuality is “it’s icky”.

I agree with the OP that gays are already on an irrevocable course towards equal rights and tolerance. But only because I know many people just won’t stop fighting, no matter what.

And what senators and attorneys general are for gay marriage?