Except that marriage is a social construct, not a law of nature. People can have babies without marriage and people can have marriage without babies, which is as far as evolution cares. Nature, and the process of evolution, care absolutly jack squat about what we “civilized” beings refer to as “marriage”. Marriage is not the result of evolution, nor is it the natural state of a human being(humans don’t have the “mate for life” instinct like some animals).
Enjoy,
Steven
Debaser’s saying to me “Your capacity to love and desire another person is a defect” is intolerable. If I refuse to tolerate that attitude from my father*, I sure as hell am not going to tolerate it from some hypocritical fucker on a message board.
*Father has long since come around
Windwalker said, “Why should the person who considers homosexuality to be immoral be condemned so much more than those who consider meat-eating to be immoral?”
I suppose you could make the argument that eating meat harms animals, but until we hold livestock at the same level as human life, I can’t say this is a fair comparison.
I suppose if people kept their opinions to themselves, and never let their opinion effect the civil rights or general human dignity of gays, it would be OK. But inevitably, these opinions come out in ways that harm other people. The fact that Debaser said he didn’t think gays should be afforded marriage rights HURTS the gay population that so desperately wants to marry their loved one. This statement alone tells them they’re a step under the rest of us. It may be trivial to you, but it is at the very core of some of this board’s “pursuit of happiness.”
Matt said, “When debaser says he would treat a gay child with as much compassion as a straight child, does he seriously mean he would never let slip his opinion that homosexuality is wrong, even before he knows the child is gay? Because that’s what that would mean, as a minimum.”
When his child comes to him and says he wants to get married (to another man), will he tell him that he’s against it (or possibly voted against it)? That’s just one blatant difference in the way you’re treating your straigt/gay kids. It will come out in more ways that you’ll ever imagine.
Yes. It. Does.
If you think homosexuality is “wrong” in any way shape or form you are a fucking idiot. If you think its a sin, if you think they shouldn’t marry, if you think they shouldn’t adopt, if you think they shouldn’t teach, if you think that there is something wrong with that guy standing next to you based only on where he chooses to stick his penis, its all the same god damn thing.
. . . Unless he has a penis that’s shaped like a turnip, and likes to hide in the vegetable rack and frighten the children . . .
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!
I think this nails it. This is pretty much why I don’t understand why people oppose gay marriage. It’s not like it’s affecting them in any way. Hiding behind religion isn’t a good defense either, for one thing, there’s the seperation of church and state. The evolutionary reasoning is very well debunked by Mtgman. To me, it boils down to the question: why do you care?
I feel that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. However, when someone tries to restrict another person’s civil liberties as a result of those opinions, I develop a problem.
I also think Velma brought up an excellent comparison with women in the workplace. It is natural for people to have greater intolerance for other’s opinions when they have the capacity to be directly threatened by them. If someone said they opposed women in the workplace in this day and age, it would be no biggie, because no threat comes from it. Gay marriage is considered a biggie though, because it poses a direct threat on equal rights for homosexuals.
I may be in the minority here, but I see a direct correlation between the gay rights movement and the women’s right and civil rights movements. It’s history repeating itself. For whatever reason, some people feel threatened by the idea of homosexuals marrying. Just like some people felt threatened by women in the workplace and blacks sitting at the lunch counter. When you feel threatened, you try to hold the threatening party down. Keep women out of the workplace. Keep blacks away from the lunchcounter. Keep homosexuals from marrying.
It’s no big suprise then that people posting about how they oppose gay marriage and think homosexuality is wrong, would face the same kind of reactions as those who opposed women in the workplace and blacks at the lunchcounters. Of course, the reactions are a bit harsher now, because people are less afraid to confront those opinions.
I do believe that some of the confrontations are a bit over the top though (lissener I’m looking at you) and can be counterproductive to the cause.
In short, I think there needs to be a bit more tolerance on both sides.
Perhaps we are being a little to narrow here on both ends. We need to define “wrong”. If “wrong” means something i find to be sinful, or evil; that’s one thing. "Wrong can also mean incorrect; as in a choice that’s incorrect for a person’s lifestyle. Personally, I view homosexuality as a valid form of sexual expression and love, equal in it’s entirety to heterosexuality. This does NOT mean, however, that i find it to be something i find interesting, arousing, or pleasant to discuss. As far as i’m concerned, It’s more like a fetish to me. I don’t find it dirty or sinful, just strange, and perhaps a bit repugnant, when i think about physical expression in same-sex relationships. I want to reiterate that i do NOT feel that this is something that could be, would want to be, or needs to be helped. It’s the way some people are, and that’s fine by me. I’m sure some gay’s might find my sexual expression (hetero) strange and different to their view. After all, we are born with our sexuality hard-wired, so why would one be any better than the other? Sorry to ramble but to summarize, I fully acknowledge the validity of homosexuality, and that they should have the same rights to social institutions (marriage) as everyone else. However, it’s only fair that i be allowed my natural aversion to something that is not built into my psyche.
I, for instance, have an aversion to people not using return keys or capital letters . . .
Maybe it does in some cases, but that is not the fault of the people who make the refrain. After all, if telling someone he’s an alcoholic makes him feel bad, should people just let him keep drinking? It’s the same thing with homosexuality. Being homosexual and being an alcoholic are innate condition which one cannot be expected to change, but acting on those innate desires is wrong and one cannot just shift the blame onto other people by saying “your attempts to help me are making me feel sad, so shut up.”
And yes, I just compared homosexual behavior to drinking when one is an alcoholic, as I believe both are self-destructive activities. If you have a problem with that, oh well. We’re all here to defend our own moral beliefs.
While in no way a huge group, there are many gays who belong to religious traditions which do not permit homosexual behavior. I know several devout Catholics who are homosexual. They accept the refrain that homosexual behavior is wrong without feeling “hurt” and voluntarily enter into a life of celibacy. If they can handle it, why can’t other gays?
UnuMondo
The problem with this is that this aversion is a learned trait and one that is based in prejudice and fear. As such, I am terribly sorry but I will never give you a pass on it. It is up to you to overcome this aversion.
Originally posted by UnoMondo
How many alcoholics do you know knew they were an alcoholic by the age of 5? This comparison is ludicrous.
Who the fuck asked for your help?
Why stop there. I know several devout Catholics who are priests. They accept that having sex of any kind is wrong and therefore have voluntarily entered into a life of celibacy. If they can handle it, why can’t other Catholics? Especially you.
Geez, you can’t even spell my username right when the Board has an automatic quotation function.
Alcoholism is widely believed to be caused by genetic factors. Children of an alcoholic parent or parents are advised to be very mindful of their alcohol intake.
Moral compulsion generally doesn’t care whether the recipient likes it or not.
UnuMondo
The thing that I find fascinating in all of this is that it is basically a group of people who feel they have been seriously wounded by an orthodoxy of belief, and by the insistence that every “good” person must hold that particular belief – who nevertheless propose their own orthodoxy of belief and insist that every good person must hold it.
It is not enough that you treat homosexuals as equals. It is not enough that you do not fear them, or bear any ill-will toward them, or discriminate agains them in any way. No, you must believe that homosexual acts are moral and that there is nothing wrong with them – even if this is something you do not believe. Because by God, if you’re going to be a worthy person, you must believe what we tell you to believe. And if you don’t, then you’re “human trash,” or a “fucking idiot.”
I just find it astonishing that people who have been so often whacked with this particular sword would be so eager to pick it up to use on others. And I’m amazed that not one of you sees the irony.
The thing that I find fascinating in all of this is that it is basically a group of people who feel they have been seriously wounded by an orthodoxy of belief, and by the insistence that every “good” person must hold that particular belief – who nevertheless propose their own orthodoxy of belief and insist that every good person must hold it.
It is not enough that you treat homosexuals as equals. It is not enough that you do not fear them, or bear any ill-will toward them, or discriminate agains them in any way. No, you must believe that homosexual acts are moral and that there is nothing wrong with them – even if this is something you do not believe. Because by God, if you’re going to be a worthy person, you must believe what we tell you to believe. And if you don’t, then you’re “human trash,” or a “fucking idiot.”
I just find it astonishing that people who have been so often whacked with this particular sword would be so eager to pick it up to use on others. And I’m amazed that not one of you sees the irony.
And I am one of those you speak of, UnuMondo. Although I now call myself asexual, due to my nonexistent desire for sexual contact, I would also have no problem labelling myself as gay (as indeed I once did). I consider the male form aesthetically pleasing, those few individuals I have been attracted to have been male, and all of my sexual experiences have been with the same sex.
I follow the teachings of the Orthodox Church on homosexuality. I do not believe that homosexual orientation is a choice, but I do believe that homosexual sexual activity is a sin. I do not support discrimination against homosexuals, but neither do I support religious gay marriage (I am favor of the government getting out of the business of officially recognizing marriages altogether). I harbor no personal antipathy for gays; I simply do not believe that homosexual activity is what humans were meant to do (the same goes for all sex outside of marriage).
Wrong Jodi. It’s not so much that you must believe that homosexual acts are moral, but that you must keep your mouth shut about it and not contribute to the problem.
HOMEBREW –
First, it’s not a belief I personally hold, but then I’m not screaming my lungs out trying to tell people what they have to believe. Second, I don’t think that you or anyone is in a position to tell anyone else that they must “keep their mouths shut” about their moral beliefs even when those moral beliefs are not accompanied by any legitimately objectionable riders – like a contemptuous attitude or discriminatory action. This is especially true on a message board where opinions are freely aired and we should all of us object to any assertion that the only acceptable opinions may be aired, and everyone else can “keep their mouths shut.” Because in society as a whole, you are far more likely to hear this than I am: “It’s not so much that you must believe that homosexual acts are immoral, HOMEBREW, but that you must keep your mouth shut about it and not contribute to the problem.”