Lissener, again.

The BBQ Pit
241

You miss the point that for a huge number, possibly even the vast majority, of gay folks, “I think being gay/acting on being gay is wrong” is hammered at them. Constantly. All the time. Something that some of them have to face as a default in their existence, the backdrop against which they are constantly forced to be on stage, whether in the closet are out.

I think it’s disingenuous to argue that one person’s “Well, I just happen to disapprove” can be divorced from that context, can be considered as some separate thing from the waves of constant battering and abusiveness, any more than a single cup of water can be legitimately separated from the tsunami.

What’s one more little poke in the death of a thousand cuts, after all? No big deal.

Just another boiled frog.

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Why? You would then hold one person responsible for things he or she didn’t do.

243

*Sunday the 16th. 2:15 p.m. *

Monday. 18 hours, 10 posts later:

The last time I witnessed histrionics this obvious was at Zsa Zsa Gabor’s indictment [sup]†[/sup].

MrVisible: you sir, are a contender. Appropriate thread for it.

[sup]† [/sup]Arrested in 1989.

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MR VISIBLE –

[

Let me consider it.
Nope, I’m good. I conclude that I make no sense whatsoever to you, but this is not keeping me up nights. Especially after seeing your head pop off like that. I mean, surely you see the irony of a person arguing that mere words can have a devastating effect, and that enforced silence is therefore somehow okay, then being as purely vicious as possible to someone else. And recall that I am only talking about a statement of belief, not directed at anyone in particular, and not intended to cause pain, while you are intentionally pouring vitriolic bile on someone else. Irony, thy name is MR VISIBLE.

But FWIW, I certainly do advocate personal responsibility, but I don’t see the causal relationship between “Person A holds this belief [and that’s all you know about him/her]” and “Person B tried to kill himself.” So you’ll have to excuse me if I refuse to “take responsibility” (or encourage others to take responsibility) for something that I don’t see any responsibility for at this point, which is – again – the point at which all you have is the belief and nothing else.

LILAIREN –

Well, on some level it is, just like taking a breath is an action and sitting down is an action. What I’m saying, of course, is that it without more is not an active sort of action (to reduce myself to redundancies). It is not an affirmative “thing” that is done against or towards anyone else, it is only a statement of belief and nothing more. It does not necessarily even engender a particular attitude, let alone a particular action. So MRVISIBLE’s implicit argument(s) are not persuasive, insofar as he argues that (a) holding this belief (without more) rises to the level of homophobia and/or evil; and/or (b) it is reasonable to expect or demand that people holding the belief be quiet about it, because the fact that they hold it might make other people feel bad. And despite the semantic accuracy of pointing out that saying something is itself an action, I think my argument is by this time – after five pages – should be pretty clear.

GUM, of course I can see that the belief very often leads to actions. BUT NOT IN EVERY SINGLE CASE. What the hell is so hard about this? My entire point is that you cannot take the mere fact that a person holds this one belief WITHOUT MORE as proof that he or she is a homophobe or a fuckwad or evil or whatever, because you don’t know that.

EXPRIX, I’m reading selectively at this point. Specifically, I’m attempting to skip the snarky parts. And I’m not really devoting a lot of energy; at this point my position is as clear as I can make it, and therefore as clear as it ever will be. Like I said, at the point I find myself repeating myself over and over (like, see my above to GUM), I start boring even myself. And I figure if even I’m bored with a discussion I’m in, that’s a good sign the discussion has probably become pretty damn boring. So I wouldn’t guarantee I’ll be reading it after this. Because, y’know, life is short (five page threads notwithstanding).

G8RGUY – Thanks for picking up the slack. :slight_smile: And to BELTANE and LILAIREN, of course he’s not talking about such things as verbal abuse or slander or libel. He’s talking about a statement of belief: I believe dancing is immoral. I believe lying is immoral. I believe [whatever]. I realize that extrapolating from the point he (we) are actually making, makes it easier to attack, but I also believe you are smart enough to understand the contours of the limited point we are making.

245

And I have to say, as I go, that I don’t understand that the rationale that a 1000 people hold the belief, and therefore collectively may make the individual feel very bad indeed, somehow that imposes some duty on each individual (or any individual) to not hold the belief, or not say they hold it – assuming that the individual is not intentionally being part of some nebulous oppressive whole.

So I don’t know what the solution is. As I have said, I have no objection to making such people understand that they are part of a greater unpleasantness, even if it is unintentional. Assuming they are people of good will, maybe understanding that even holding the belief is hurtful to some will make them reconsider whet]her their position is actually just. But they still aren’t homophobes or evil. And by refusing to give up or be silent about their legitimately-held beliefs, they are not necessarily committing any action that harms anyone else.

246

And yet, if all of those single people did not do those things, the harm would not be done. Who would you hold responsible for that harm?

247

I just said, I don’t know what the solution is. Though to be more accurate, that really means that I don’t think there is one. You are implicitly asking for something you have no right to ask for.

In terms of actual responsibility, I would hold those responsible who do not merely hold this belief, but who use it as a basis and justification for discrimination or any other actual, harmful actions that reasonably may be criticized.

But to the extent you would theorize some collective “harm” done by the belief alone – that gay people somehow feel bad even knowing that some people on this earth think some of their actions are immoral – I would not blame anyone for that. Somethings just are, and there’s no redress. Like I’ve already said, the fact that some Jews consider me a polytheist sort of bugs me, but how is that their problem? Even if I felt reallly bad about it, they still hold that belief in good faith, and I have no right to expect them to stop holding it or to pretend they don’t when in fact they do. The morality practiced by most gay people, at least insofar as sex is concerned, is irreconcilable with the morality practiced by religious traditionalists, be they Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. Just as I don’t hold gay people “responsible” for that, neither do I hold the other side “responsible” for it, either. That’s just the way it is.

So let me ask you this: If people holding this religious belief were legitimately hurt, wounded even, by the fact that gay people actually have gay sex, would you be advocating that gay people stop because if all those single people did not do thos things, the harm would not be done? Or would you only insist there must be some solution because you personally don’t like the harm that you perceive?

248

That’s only ironic in the Alanis Morissette world. MrVisible clearly demonstrated that words do have an affect, thereby laying waste to the arguement that they’re “just words” and they do no harm. His intention was to insult a specific person for a specific reason. Anti-gay words are themselves hurtful to an entire group for no good reason AND they help foster a climate where physical attacks happen with distressing frequency. The difference is not subtle.

249

Ummm… Homebrew, he demonstrated no such thing, at least inasmuch that I didn’t exactly see Shodan running around crying about how hurt he was by MrVisible’s disapproval. If anything, he seemed more amused than hurt.

I suppose the basic problem is that you want to blame Shodan for “fostering a climate” wherein Bob the Homophobe assaults you. I want to blame Bob the Homophobe for being an asshole who believes that beating people is okay.

Lil, all I can do is echo Jodi and say that I don’t know what the solution is when lots of people hold a particular belief. I do feel that holding said belief, and even expressing it, is not in and of itself immoral.

Lastly, I think Jodi is dead on the money when saying that the point we are trying to make has been elucidated as clearly as it can possibly be at this point.

Oh, and Jodi, you are, of course, quite welcome. :slight_smile:

250

Respectfully, Homebrew, the conversation was not about anti-gay words. It was about someone saying “my church tells me homosexual behavior is a sin.” Jodi even went so far as to say she’s grappling with this problem, but couldn’t quite get MrVisible to grasp the dichotomy.

The only overt attack that I can recall was when MrVisible lost his mind with the “fuckity” post. 18 hours later, he covered with a nice hijacking story about words and their effects.

251

Yup. Your point is clear. You want to keep hurting people.

I’d have a lot more respect for you if you simply said “I don’t care if my words foster a climate of hatred that makes discrimination possible. I don’t give a shit about whether my very vocal position on this issue is helping to drive people to despair and sucide, and helping to create a world in which gay are much more likely to be harrassed and assaulted. I like having that kind of power, and dammit, I’m going to wield it however I see fit.”

As it is, you’re doing fascinating verbal acrobatics to try and deny that your words mean anything. Fascinating, but sad.

To those of you who want to maintain your offense at my going off on Shodan, (that amoral slime-ridden scum of a weak excuse for a proto-human), but who continue to maintain that words cannot hurt people, congratulations. Your ability to maintain such an astonishing double standard is, while not admirable, certainly impressive.

252

And what you can’t seem to understand is that calling homosexuality a sin is anti-gay.

253

Point of order: they have said their church believes homosexual behavior is a sin. And they themselves grapple with their church’s belief, because it’s a difficult dichotomy.

Importantly, though, why do you care about what some other fellow’s God thinks of you?

254

My mistake, Homebrew. The above quote should have been attributed to you.

255

MrVisible, you have the reading comprehension of a turnip. Hence, your outrage is as nothing to me, because by now it is clear that you are beneath contempt and warrant only pity. Have a nice thread.

256

I comprehend what you’re saying. Moreover, I grasp the reprecussions of what you say, which is more than you can say for yourself.

257

I’m glad that Jodi is grappling with the issue. However, let’s not pretend that hers is the prevaling attitude. Many more people say they believe it a sin. Labeling us unrepentant sinners does real harm to us. It creates divides in families. It give succor to bigots who would do us physical harm. It creates Judges like Roy Moore who take children from parents. It creates statues like those in Florida that forbid gay people from adopting. It creates schisms like that in the Episcopal Church. It is homophobic.

I hope someday the church can rid itself of its bigotry, as it is doing (note the present tense) with racism. Until then, though, don’t expect us to smile gently and nod when you tell us we’re sinners.

Your refusal to acknowledge the link between “It’s an abomination” and “Let’s beat the little faggot” is a defense mechanism, I guess. But the link is there.

258

I completely understand that, and value that viewpoint. In this very thread, I had an epiphany at the hands of (of all people) Res :wink: who let me see that through careful discussion of these “grappling points” one may actually evince some creative thought on behalf of the devout.

I just hope you can appreciate that such people who are strong enough to publicly stand up for their Faith – and in The Pit, against the tide, even – will never foment gay bashing. In fact, these people of character may, one day, help remove that phrase from the lexicon entirely.

259

Now that’s funny.

See, that’s just what you’re doing.

260

You somehow think gay bashing is funny. I, however, do not.

My hope is for religious and non-religious types to come together, and stop that kind of ignorant, devastating and deadly behavior, once and for all.