I can see where you are coming from, but, like I said, even IF I came to the conclusion homosexuality is a sin (which I have not) then I don’t think it’s any worse than any of the things I have done in my life.
I have had this discussion a few times on the boards already and to me, if I love God with all my heart, mind and soul and love my neighbor as myself then I can’t go wrong.
I am not going to waste my precious short time on earth deciding who people should and should not have sex with. It’s not my call.
But I have never been called homophobic nor would I ever consider myself to be. I just wanted someone else’s opinion.
I do, however, think someone can think homosexuality itself is sinful and not be a homophobic person. Just as I think someone can think adultery is wrong yet still accept a person who has committed adultery. Or is that not a fair comparison?
Alice, I’m not getting your conclusion there. People sin all the time, both straights and gays. There’s no reason to think that homosexual contact would be a sin any greater than the other sins committed by straight people.
Just for a comparison, according to the Pope, having straight sex with birth control is a sin. So, a straight couple who is using birth control is sinning just as often, and in remarkably similar fashion to a gay couple. Are we to believe that this straight couple is dehumanized by the ‘sinner’ label the way lissener believes gays are?
BTW, lissener, you haven’t responded to Aries about this particular homophobe label, and you haven’t responded to Lemur about labeling as homophobes people who think that homosexuality isn’t genetic.
Aries28 has a good heart and is not even the slightest bit homophobic. Her church and her heart are in conflict, and if she errs, she does her best to err on the side of mercy. **JerseyDiamond (the trailer park Lucrezia Borgia) is a homophobe. Aries28 most emphatically is not.
I, obviously, disagree with her comparison of homosexuality with adultery, but that’s a matter for another day.
lissener - I think part of the problem you are running into is a difference in assumptions. You, and I would assume you would agree with this, have posted numerous threads decrying homophobia and anti-homosexual bigotry. I have a feeling that you view this as a sort of generalized rant. If you were making these arguments to the world at large I would be with you all the way. I doubt however, that you would get many arguments here in favor of such bigotry and discrimination. It makes me wonder to whom these rants are directed.
This is where you run into problems. You are not posting a cry to the wilderness. You are posting to a community that has relatively very very few people who hate homosexuals or favor discrimination against them. After a while we start to wonder why you continue to yell at us about the issue. If Airman’s mild and well thought out views on the subject are the biggest hurdles you face, then the battle has already been won.
My own views make no distinction between the value of a homosexual person and a heterosexual. I favor gay rights, including the right to marry. Why do you suppose it is then that when I log in I groan to find another lissener thread bitching at me about homophobes? I would suggest it is because your threads imply that this is a homophobic community. I don’t believe it is.
I wish you could develop a sense of the gray areas in political opinion. It is clear that you only see black and white. I disagree with Airman in some of his particulars, but in the larger sense I am with him. You come across as an extremist. I like this community and find that most of those I disagree with have well thought out nuanced views. Your unwillingness to allow for these nuances is disturbing.
Homosexuality is not an action. It is who a person is.
Saying that homosexuality is a sin is like saying that hetersexuality is a sin - I think that’s false.
If your church dogma indicates that sex outside of some sort of meaningful bond is sinful, that’s not homophobic. Gay people can form meaningful bonds and therefore, their expressions of love would not be sinful.
However, suggesting that just by EXISTING as a homosexual is sinful, is IMHO, very homophobic.
Being gay vs. committing adultury are to totally different things. Just look at the verb associated with each to see what I’m getting at. (being vs. committing).
I’m not yelling at you; I’m yelling—insofar as I’m “yelling”—at the homophobes. If you’re not a homophobe then I’m not yelling at you. I’m sorry, but I can’t prevent you from reading a thread that contains yelling in it.
I never suggested that ADUSAF was the biggest hurdle I face, so I’m not sure of your point. If he were the worst homophobe in the world, I’d consider it pretty close to won; but of course he’s not. FWIW, I don’t remember calling him, specifically, a homophobe, except in the joke thread.
I can’t even imagine. If the way I have defined homophobia doesn’t describe you, then I don’t know why you feel that I’m yelling at you.
Overall, I agree. However, I think it’s a given that homophobes are not as universally shunned—even here—as racists or misogynists. No one ever reminds people to be polite when addressing a racist or an anti-semite, but the whole community will line up to defend a homophobe’s “right to express his opinion.” (That right is not in doubt; the insistence on treating homophobes with respect when no such treatment is demanded for racists is what I’m pointing out.)
When have I denied that? In the first place. In the second place, what’s dry abstract politics to you is personal attacks to me; expect me to react differently
I don’t “not allow for them.” I simply point out that their judgment of me is wrong, and then stand by that statement.
“I believe that homosexuality is a sin” is not an innocuous political statement. It is a personal attack on me as a human being—try to understand this—and I will react accordingly. Other gay people here may react differently; I don’t criticize them for it (up to a point; I have snapped back when I thought their placing a homophobe’s comfort over my rights approached, in my opinion, UncleTommery, but this has rarely happened).
If the statement was made “Crusing for tricks at gay bars is a sin.” (or words to that effect), I could accept that.
However, if the statement was “If two adult people are in a loving, committed relationship and their expressions of love to each other are sins.” then I find that highly offensive.
I wouldn’t say homophobic exactly, but certainly, misguided.
Is there anyone* on this board who says this, except as a poorly worded attempt at actually saying “homosexual acts are a sin”?
I certainly don’t begrudge you correcting folks along these lines, but have you ever asked for clarification and have someone say, “no I believe homosexuals are sinners even when they are chaste”?
If not, what’s your beef about homophobia on this board?
What utter crap. This community is extraordinarily accepting of homosexuals and intolerant of homophobia.
You just don’t see that because to you, everyone who disagrees with your own ideas is a homophobe, and therefore refusing to crucify people who don’t agree with you, is in your eyes is “tolerating” homophobia. And it’s bullshit. This community is singularly intolerant to homophobia, it just as a whole refuses (correctly, IMO) to define the term as broadly as you insist on defining it.
By what standard? By my count, out of the last 100 threads you’ve participated in, 10 were started by you. Of those that were started by you, 6 had homosexuality as a topic, and 5 (maybe all) of them were related to your hatred of homophobes.
Here’s the list:
Gay Children of Homophobes Unite!
What is it with fundies and homos?
Barbecue brisket
Homophobes can suck my dick.
Will you children be gay?
Now THIS vigilanteism I approve of.
lissener’s short movie reviews
A Might Wind disappointed me (SPOILERS)
“Homophobia” highjacks
Any Dopers change their minds on gay issues?
So 60% of the threads you started were about the same damn topic in the last 3 weeks, and all of the ones that weren’t about homosexuality were in Cafe Society, and if a person reading the boards didn’t look in Cafe Society (which I generally don’t), to them all you talk about is homophobes. That’s not even counting some other threads, like Diogenes’ thread referring to homosexuality.
Even Esprix doesn’t post about homosexuality with such frequency.
So yeah, you’re a One-Trick-Pony.
Anyway, getting back to what we were talking about earlier:
So, right after attempting to explain that it was a joke, you attack me again. I’m not amused. And, frankly, you can explain it away as a joke, but I see no indication that what went on in that thread was anything less than what you really thought. It was equivalent to me calling you a “faggot” and then saying “Just kidding!”. In other words, lissener, I simply don’t believe you were kidding. I think you meant every word of what you said, so your “joke” excuse doesn’t wash with me.
Oh, and since you didn’t understand something I said, I’ll repost it and explain:
The first two are already addressed. As for the last one:
Do you really think that other people don’t read the boards? Of those people, do you really think that none of them are in some position of authority? And last, did you ever hear of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”? I don’t care what you think of that particular policy, but with your pathetic attempts to be funny you inferred that I was gay. That is all that is required for me to get thrown out of the Air Force. I have posted enough of my personal information here that anyone who wanted to could find out who I am and where I’m stationed, report me, and run me out. All because you think it’s funny. Well, I’m here to tell you that it’s simply not cool, especially considering that I actually support your cause, just not your approach to it.
Lastly, other than the “joke” thread, you’re right. You never named anyone in particular as a homophobe. You just inferred it everywhere else.
That is an inference that if someone doesn’t agree with you, then they are homophobes.
So, what we have here is a situation where everyone knows what you said, but you didn’t single anyone out so you can deny that you called any single person a homophobe. It’s comparable to the debate about whether or not Bush said “imminent”. He may not have said it, but he sure as hell inferred it. So it is with you. You inferred that the people who fit your description are homophobes, even if that’s not the case.
Regardless, you are a dishonest, bitter, spiteful man. And that’s too bad, because the same people you’re pissing off are the same people you need to help you. But do as you will. Just don’t be surprised when people get upset with you.
“No one ever reminds people to be polite when addressing a racist or an anti-semite, but the whole community will line up to defend a homophobe’s ‘right to express his opinion.’”
–utter crap?
I don’t think there’s any question that homophobia is more tolerated here than racism, anti-semitism, or misogyny. I’d be interested in cites to the contrary, though that’ll be difficult; one cite wouldn’t show a pattern.
Perhaps you could find me a cite, Jodie, where someone defends a racist’s “right to express his opinion”? ditto anti-semite or misogynist?
I believe the rights of homosexuals should be protected.
I also believe that people have the right to disapprove of the conduct of others, as long as they do not limit their rights/freedoms. I repeat- I believe people have the right to full freedom of thought and expression as long as they do not harm others.
I guess Lissener sees no irony in labeling as sub-human those who label him as sub-human. But hey, that’s his right.
Actually, lissener, the one group that it seems OK to attack with impunity here is Fundies. And you yourself are one of the major promulgators of that thinking.
Doors, please, while I work on your silly post–which as much as admits that I never called anyone a homophobe simply for disagreeing with me, which is as close as I guess I’ll get to receiving an apology–PLEASE look up the word “inferred.”
Lissener, your so called “joke” thread wasn’t funny in the least, and the more you post, the more I am convinced that you are an utterly ridiculous person.
Cite? I always try to make it very clear that the only fundies I’m criticizing are the homophobic ones; I don’t tar the whole bunch with the same brush.
I am embarrassed to say a long time ago, in my callow youth, my complete and utter lack of exposure to gay people, (and some homophobic crap that I’d heard from others around me) made me ignorant and somewhat intolerant of gay people. Maybe I qualified as “homophobic,” but I give myself credit that my “homophobia” was very quickly disspelled as soon as I met some bonafide gay people.
I was ashamed of how ignorant I was and was quick (I think) to accept that I had been completely wrong. But my point is, there was a time when I was, through my complete ignorance, a “homophobe.” It was not a permanent condition.
I am glad that the gay people that I met back then were aware of my complete ignorance and cut me some slack. I am grateful that they treated me with such kindness, showed me how sweet they were, and allowed me that time to see how completely wrong I was, without biting my head off.
My personal experiences have given me the attitudes and feelings I have today. However, I’m glad that I met very few Angry Gay People ™ back then. Not that it would have changed the outcome–I know my “homophobia” wasn’t very deep to begin with (and there are too many great gay people out there that I would have invariably met). But I still am very glad that I didn’t meet that many Angry Gay People ™. They do not help. At all. And, sadly, I consider lissener to be an Angry Gay Person ™.
So . . . it’s somewhat a subjective judgment then; people who DO read Café probably wouldn’t think of calling me a one trick pony. In any case, all the gay-related threads that I started were part of a coherent series; one branched from the next to avoid hijacks.
Here’s a more comprehensive statistical overview:[ol]
[li]Verhoeven Reconsidered[/li][li]Any Dopers change their view on gay issues? [/li] [li]“Homophobia” highjacks[/li][li]A Might Wind disappointed me (SPOILERS)[/li][li]lissener’s short movie reviews[/li][li]Now THIS vigilanteism I approve of.[/li]** [li]Will your children be gay? [/li] [li]Homophobes can suck my dick. [/li][li]barbecue brisket[/li] [li]What is it with fundies and homos? [/li] [li]Gay Children of Homophobes Unite! *[/li][li]Can I stop someone from calling me?[/li][li]Once is never good enough[/li][li]Jessy Christ on a Celluloid Cross[/li][li]Audition: redeeming value?[/li][li]I hope Arnold disappoints them.[/li][li]phones compatible with Qwest cell/wireless?[/li][li]From Hell: a rebuttal to white society’s view of the Ghetto?[/li][li]Expandable CD “wallets”[/li][li]Should “Hot Naked Babe” threads be in Cafe Society or MPSIMS?[/li][li]The Giving Tree is a twisted book[/li][li]Plum blasted[/li][li]Lates chance to debate Art v. Popularity: S. King wins literary award[/li][li]Gilligan killed Kelly: BBC reporter admits inaccuracy[/li][li]The Heart knows (THROB)–Tab Hunter is GAY![/li][li]Arnold Schwarzenegger is the greatest actor since . . .[/li][li]Hope she can sell the movie rights[/li][li]She didn’t suffer from any mental illness. She is just mean as hell [Graphic story][/li][li]Hard “corps” question[/li][li]Lyndon LaRouche is not insane[/li][li]outsider music?[/li][li]If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin…[/li][li]Web design question[/li][li]Shut that baby up already![/li][li]YAY! Holly Cole’s returning to her roots![/li][li]how to terminate a non-lease rental?[/li][li]One Hour Photo – SPOILERS!!![/li][li]Which works better on headaches: aspirin or Tylenol?[/li][li]Ishtar: the movie everybody loves![/li][li]Pompous negativity in Cafe Society threads[/li][li]Rules of style re: trademarks[/li][li]Online emergency room directory?[/li][li]Please, people, with the stealth BUFFY spoilers[/ol][/li]
Hmmm. Go back 6 months, 43 posts, and it’s still just those six threads, clustered together. I’d call that 14%, even giving you the one that I had locked so I could re-word it.
So, the only way you can “win this point,” as it were, is by calling me a liar. Can you honestly read that thread, wherein I say that all homophobes sleep under their mothers’ bed, and tell me that you insist I was being literal and serious? If so, then I’ll leave you to it; no point in wasting my time with that kind of irrationality or dishonesty, whichever it is.
Whaaa? Cite, please, where I misrepresented your position; show me a good cite, and I’ll apologize. As far as dishonesty, that will require a cite too; it’s my honesty that’s getting me in trouble here. Unless you just want to point to the joke thread and scream “liar” again.
All respect dude, bullshit: you’re not gonna get kicked out of the service because some guy in another state said, “Suck my dick!” Now who’s being dishonest? Rapidly losing whatever respect I had for you.
I’ve named several people as homophobes, but always, I thought, while giving a clear reason for doing so.
No; it’s an implication that if you name homosexuality as a “sin”—and not just name all extramarital sex acts, homo or hetero, as sins, then you’re a homophobe. Just reading this thread you’ll see that I’m not alone in that opinion.
Wait: I implied that anyone who fits my description of a homophobe is a homophobe? Wrong: I stated outright that anyone who fits my description of a homophobe is a homophobe. Isn’t that a bit tautological? I still defy you to find ANYWHERE that I called someone a homophobe for ANY REASON OTHER than my very carefully worded definition of a homophobe, which did not include “anyone who disagrees with me.” Just saying I implied it, to maintain deniability, is bullshit. I’ve written thousands and thousands of words on my position here, which you say is “X,” yet in all those thousands of words you can find not one single piece of evidence that my position is, in fact, “X”? Wow. I should be writing for the president, if I can pull that off.
You disagree with me. Fine. But I’ve been 100% consistent in whom I’m criticizing, and I think I’ve proved pretty conclusively that your accusation that “anyone who disagrees with me is a homophobe” was an overstatement on your part.