Actually, in my experience, people on this board generally do manage to answer questions without displaying those characteristics.
Sure, plenty of debates and discussions here can get heated, especially when politics or other controversial topics are concerned, but the default aproach, especially in places like Cafe Society and GQ, is generally to offer one’s opinion or advice or answer without implying that the recipient is a complete dunce or ignoramus.
As Cheesesteak says in his post, above, if the person continues to argue in the face of better information, then some extra attitude might be called for, “but your first foray into the topic shouldn’t be attacking another poster.”
Because it’s not my job to indulge an ignorant boob’s delicate feelings when he spouts authority from a zone of hubristic ignorance. If you get to call me on being an arrogant bastard, then I get to call Chuck on being hubristic and ignorant.
If someone comes into a conversation with a tone of openness and curiosity, I’m not gonna create an unpleasant situation out of thin air by jumping on them for their ignorance. I was not taking Chuck to task for his ignorance, but for the hubris with which he spouted it. Two subjects: female artists; Chuck’s hubris. I carefully separated them. I was not returning tone with tone based on ignorance, but based on arrogance.
Kinda like you guys are doing here. Fine, I’m arrogant for calling Chuck arrogant. And so it goes.
(I’d like to point out to all you people who are insisting it was my duty to bend over backwards and meet Chuck’s arrogance with cuddly accomodation to avoid hurting his feelings, that he has not once objected to what I said; this teapot tempest is ENTIRELY third-party.)
Eh. lissener was being lissener. He knows his shit, sometimes. You just have to get past the presentation. Once you get used to it, it doesn’t even register anymore.
Well, that’s about the response i expected, i guess. You’ve clearly demonstrated that you’re not at all interested in being even the slightest bit accommodating on issues like this. That’s how it goes i guess.
If you can’t see the difference between your attitude and RealityChuck’s in that thread, there’s probably nothing i can say that will make any difference.
Thanks Mom. Discussing another poster’s context on a subject is not against CS rules. Judging by the nature of the reaction to my post–who has complained and who has not complained–I’d have to assume that my efforts to remain within the bounds of proper CS behavior were at least nominally successful. The mods have never shown any reticence in calling me to task for such behavior; in fact I consider myself pretty baldly singled out for special scrutiny in that area. So if it’s only the junior mods who have a problem with me, I’ma probly be OK with that.
I notice you speak only in the abstract, and don’t bother to quote any actual language of my own that rankled your little junior mod’s feathers.
Speaking for myself, my criticism had nothing to do with board rules, or with any suggestion that you broke them. I was simply making a general observation about the type of conversation that is likely to be productive, and the type of conversation that is more likely to encourage people to listen to the content of your argument and engage with it.
Take it for what it’s worth. If you think it’s worth nothing—which you apparently do—feel free to ignore it.
I do understand that. Nonetheless, I have always been, and probably will always be, someone who finds it difficult not to react to displays of arrogance-in-ignorance. I understand that it will ruffle feathers, and I will always try to do so in a manner appropriate to the setting, but I’m just not likely to let it lie. I am tremendously impressed by people who own their ignorance and approach a subject with curiosity and humility. Though that’s not always me, I do strive to be like that. It’s a pet peeve. Frankly, I’m not all that interested in accomodating someone who has already demonstrated that kind of arrogant closemindedness; I’d much rather expend my energies elsewhere. So it doesn’t bother me too terribly much if my approach is not particularly popular among the arrogant-and-ignorant. I’ve grown to old and lazy to waste my time trying to teach any more pigs to sing.
It’s one of my plethora of permanent imperfections. Maybe someday I’ll devote some psychic energy to being more saintlike, and work harder at smiling benignly at the arrogant ignorant, but I today I got laundry.
Right. Because the only choices are between trying to be the Virgin of Fátima and being a dick. You don’t have to be a dick, you know. In that thread, maybe what’s-his-face was being a tad arrogant. Well, you responded with overwhelming force. And the end result is he looks like Gandhi on downers compared to you. You read a whole lot into his tone that most of the rest of us didn’t see at all, and you’re claiming it as justification for acting like an asshole. I don’t buy it.
And no, I don’t have to be a dick. I don’t have to be the Virgin of Fatima. I can come down somewhere in the middle, and be polite but firm to the arrogant ignorant. You seem to be offering your own false dichotomy: either you acknowledge another’s ignorance, or you don’t; and it’s impossible to acknowledge it without, ipso facto, being a dick. I thought I pointed Chuck’s arrogant ignorance out to him with a great deal of restraint: I didn’t outright call him arrogant; I simply said there was a lot out there worth exploring.
But, if you’re going to insist that pointing it out at all makes me a dick, well then I’m the one who’s not buyin.
It’s usually been my observation that when someone acquires deep knowledge of a subject they generally don’t feel the need to bludgeon everyone else with the fact.
Those that do, or who seem intent on remarking about everybody else’s ignorance seldom posess the knowledge and experience they actually claim. Typically this kind of thing is the action of the tenderfoot with a little knowledge being defensive about it.
True mastery of a subject typically embues one with tolerance and serenity that engenders a response more along the lines of what Cheesesteak suggested.
Snobbery is a defense mechanism useful when you’re not half the authority you tell everybody you are.
This pitting is asinine. lissener and I were responding to specific claims, like these:
That’s the most ignorant kind of blanket statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s an ignorant statement.
That’s a REALLY ignorant statement, and since that’s our area of semi-exptertise, that’s when lissener and I got more involved in the thread. We didn’t bring up female singers. Neither one of us went into NEAR the detail that we could have, because it wasn’t the thread for it (I had a list of over 100 great singers in music today that I was still adding to, when I trashed it because it was too much of a hijack), and yet we’re being pitted for having more knowledge on the subject and stating so. Fucking hell?
Every point lissener made was correct, and if his tone was in any way snippy (I didn’t think it was at all), I can hardly blame him. I had to bite my own tongue, which is good because I have nowhere near the vocabulary, brains or education to frame arguments as well as he does. My reaction is to say “Get real!” while lissener can come up with paragraphs of good points. All of which are ignored, usually. Or pitted because of his “tone.” :rolleyes:
I pit radio that only plays the most bland pablum.
I pit people who only listen to the bland pablum they hear around them and assume everything else is just as bland.
I pit people who make blanket statements denegrating today’s music when they only have the vaguest notion of what’s even going ON in today’s music.
I pit people who have this insane idea that if it’s not being played on the radio (that THEY listen to) it’s probably not worth hearing…
then say it’s all crap because what they hear is all crap.
I pit people who pile on lissener. Put him on ignore for god’s sake.
I pit people who are ignorant but think their opinions are just as valid as someone who knows more about the subject.
I pit people who pile on someone who actually does have a bit more knowledge than the average person, because it’s arrogant to have informed opinions.
Thanks for your support, Scylla, and for pointing out how rarely I do any such thing. (How long have I been here? How frequently before have I ever mentioned my experience on this subject? Further proof that I was not, in fact, certifying my opinion–which, again, I separated from my “credentials”–but giving an example of the range of experience along the spectrum.)
I’ll ignore the rest of your blather, but i would like to respond to these two remarks.
I don’t think i’m “piling on.” I’m merely offering an opinion which, as i said, he can take or leave. This is, as far as i remember, the first time i’ve ever weighed in against lissener, and i’m not certainly not one of those people who follows him around goading him and trying to make his life here difficult.
And no, i won’t just put him on ignore, because i happen to like the guy, and think that much of what he has to say is interesting and informative. But i think his attitude sucks at times, and i just came in here to tell him so.
Complete straw man.
I never denied that lissener was well informed, nor did i (or anyone else in this thread) ever suggest that having informed opinions was arrogant. In fact, i and others have conceded that lissener probably does, in fact, know more about that particular topic than the people he was addressing in that thread. But knowing more is one thing; acting like a self-righteous jackass in offering your knowledge to others is something else altogether.
Frankly, I was a little surprised. I’ve seen you speak eloquently and patiently about subjects which it seemed you had knowledge and wished nothing more than to enable others to experience the pleasure you had gaining your expertise and love of the subject.
In this case you came off as a pretentious snob, which to me usually means a pretender rather than a true expert.
That is a sincere and honest criticism.
If you were just having a bad moment or feeling testy, well, shit happens.
Sure, you might have been responding to specific claims. And i take your word for it that those claims demonstrated a certain amount of ignorance about the current state of the music industry.
But if one’s aim, in responding to ignorant statements, is truly to correct the ignorance and help someone come to a better understanding of the subject, then starting out by denigrating the person is not an especially productive move.
If, on the other hand, one’s aim in correcting ignorant statements is to make oneself seem superior and make the other person look stupid, the aggressive attitude is the perfect one to take.
I don’t care too much whether you choose the path of aggression and derision; just don’t act all surprised when people tell you that they don’t like it very much.
And do I make a habit of touting my credentials? No, I do not. Find me a pattern of doing that. So maybe I’m not outright lying when I say that’s not what I was doing in this case, either. Because if I was, it would be the first time, in more than 6 years as a poster.
Dude, I’m an obsessive. I tend to get heavily involved in whatever interests me. I have obsessed myself to a level of credible expertise a large number of subjects; I have been called a polymath by more than one credible adult. If I were one to go around touting my credentials, trust me, you’d’ve seen it before this. Rather, I try to let my “expertise,” such as it is, speak for itself. In other words, I try not to spout off about things I DON’T know anything about–I know, I know; makes me merely unique as a Doper. My “expertise” on whatever has only ever been relevant to a discussion *when it’s relevant to the discussion. *
Seriously. Find me another example of my bringing my expertise into a discussion, when the “expertise” was more important than the actual content of the information, and I’ll publicly acknowledge and apologize. It’s just not something I do.