I wish this were the case but in an effort to make the teams fair, many teams redraft every year.
Many leagues have “keeper” systems at the majors level where you keep your drafted players from year to year but this usually means 2 years because it is unusual for 10 year olds to be on majors teams. It can lead to some lopsided seasons as some teams develop into powerhouses and others wither away.
We are talking about the kid pitch levels. Or are you suggesting that little leagues should continue machine pitching to 9, 10 and 11 year olds?
The “everyone plays” rules usually requires that everyone get benched at least once before anyone can get benched twice. And everyone gets benched twice before anyone can get benched thrice. If you have a team of 14, you have 4 or 5 kids on the bench every inning and your best player is likely to sit the bench twice.
Mandatory Play: What Parents Need to Know
No mention of a requirement to bench every player.
Its not about “Promoting” star players. It about retaining them. And its not just star players its pretty much retaining any of the good players. Once the star players leave, the very good players leave. Then the good players. Pretty soon you don’t have enough volunteers to run a league (the fact of the matter is that most of the volunteers are parents of kids who really like the activity, and these kids are frequently good. Every once in a while you get a kid who isn’t good but loves the game but this is the exception that proves the rule) and you don’t have enough good players to have a decent game.
Little League is suffering. A lot of it is due to kids moving to other sports like Soccer where they frequently separate kids by ability level. A lot of it is due to travel ball eviscerating the local league.
I don’t know what socialism has to do with it. One of the problems is that local little leagues went beyond what little league international required and started enacting all these additional play requirements. It was all in an effort to spare some kids hurt feelings when they are 9, 10 or 11 years old. It comes from a good intentions. They want every kid to benefit from the sort of life lessons that you can get from youth baseball. But frankly baseball is not the only sport that teaches all the great things that can be learned through youth sports. Soccer is a perfectly fine sport that allows for more segregation by talent level. I don’t know of a soccer club in my area that doesn’t have an in house travel program. Its not that there aren’t enough kids in the program to provide plenty of games. It is to stratify the talent level.
Yes. and if everyone only observed the Little League International mandatory play rules, this thread wouldn’t exist. Its because most leagues have ADDITIONAL mandatory play rules that says that every kid (in a minors division) must play about the same number of defensive innings as every other kid and a lot of little leagues require that they must play several of those innings in the infield.
Is it fair for the non-star play to pay his fee to be in the league and not get to play?
Concept of fairness aside, consider the concept of youth sports, the purpose of youth sports and the benefits conferred upon the ‘youth’ when taking part in a sport. I can guarantee that, aside from the lunatic fringe, nobody really gives a shit who the best 8 year old outfielder in Podunk little league is. Nobody cares which semi-random collection of 10 year olds dominates the other 7 semi-random collection of 10 year olds in East Podunk.
What benefits are being conferred to the 8 year old baseball “player” who doesn’t get to play the game? That kid is paying just as much as the star player to take part, he deserves to get the benefits of being in youth sports. Camaraderie, sportsmanship, grit, giving 100%, these are things you don’t learn by riding pine the whole game.
Screw the travel teams, they’re just profiting by telling parents that their little snowflake is super special, and if you pony up 1,000+ each season they get extra special snowflake training that the other kids don’t get. These for profit leagues are screwing up community team sports across the country.
Data?
Nothing. Which was my point. And also emphasized by the Moderator.
Eventually? Youth sports leagues have been handing out participation trophies since the 1970s.
This is mostly just opinions by experts but its what I can offer.
“Little League’s participation peaked in the 1990’s with over three million players in its programs over various age groups. Recently that figure has plummeted to approximately 2.4 million.”
"Experts blame that trend on what they call an “up or out” mentality in youth sports. Travel leagues, ones that can sometimes cost thousands of dollars to join, have crept into increasingly younger age groups, and they take the most talented young athletes for their teams.
The children left behind either grow unsatisfied on regular recreational teams or get the message that the sport isn’t for them, Farrey said."
Mostly at the really young levels like T Ball, etc. I don’t think everybody gets a trophy was that common at the 10 year old level, was it?
Yes. As long as they know that this will be the case going in, yes it is fair.
And to be fair, we are not saying they don’t get to play at all. But that as they get older, they will slowly transition from an “everybody plays more or less equally” culture in T Ball to “everybody plays but you might end up in the outfield most of the game” for AA to “everybody plays at least every OTHER inning in the field” in AAA to Little league mandatory requirement of “everybody plays 2 innings in the field and gets one at bat” As things stand, most leagues adopts an "everybody plays more or less equally right through AAA and then adopts the “only play 2 innings” the following year.
You can get those benefits from soccer too.
The game isn’t as much fun when you play with kids that can’t catch, throw or hit.
You might learn that you aren’t going to be good at everything. Eventually they might leave and go learn soccer.
And what can we do about it? The reason these travel teams are reaching down into early kid pitch is because there is a demand. It doesn’t take a lot of convincing to get a good player’s parents to join a neighborhood travel team that plays much more competitive ball for about $600-$1000/year. Little league is about $400/year.
:eek: I remember when Little League added a rule saying that it was illegal for a league to impose any fee on any parents. I assume somebody in Williamsport then realized that, in some cases, that meant the league went out of business as it couldn’t pay for things like buying bats, uniforms, and catchers’ masks for the players (even in my day, it was BYOG - Bring Your Own Glove (and cleats, if you had them)), but still, it was nowhere near $400 a season.
That’s two seasons.
Its about $250 for the spring.
It was (at least in western New York).
I starting playing in the late 80s and “Trophy Day” at the local amusement park for all age levels was a tradition going back at least a decade at that point.
I also think it’s most likely that kids are just trying out different sports. In the 90s, youth soccer participation was right around 2.3 million kids. In the last decade, it’s risen to 3 million, which is the exact mirror image of your Little League participation statistics.
I do not remember that rule (I coached or was a parent from around 2004-2010).
At the Minors levels, my league provided a jersey (team T-shirt), cap, catcher’s gear. Players brought gloves, baseball pants, cleats, socks, belts, whatever other equipment they wanted. Fees pay for field maintenance, equipment, whatever else sponsorships don’t cover. Sponsors get their names on the T-shirts (each team gets a sponsor) and maybe a sign on the outfield fence. Here are today’s fees. We usually did team trophies (“participation trophies”), but only if the parents collectively agreed to foot the bill. (Those kind of trophies get a lot of bad commentary but IME they are just a fun memento and these kids all know how well they really did, and whether their team won or lost.) There were also tournament trophies for the post-season winning teams.
At that point the umpire may be able to call a forfeit.
But that’s exactly what’s fucked up- why in the world is there even a measurable distinction in terms of 7 year olds? That should be like their first or second season, max.
We shouldn’t be sorting our kids out athletically in kindergarten and first grade and deciding who’s good, and who’s not. Kids grow and mature at different rates- I recall kids who were really athletic at 7 who turned out not to be particularly athletic overall. And vice-versa.
Youth sports up to a certain age should be more of an incubator- give them all the support they need to thrive, and see who ends up sticking with it, and of them, who ends up having the chops to maybe play in a level past elementary school.
Instead, it’s becoming this relentless winnowing system that basically tells first time players that they’re not good at a sport at 7 years old because some other kids’ parents started them at the sport at 3. That’s fundamentally FUBAR; that kid just doesn’t have experience, and making leagues at that level not “everyone plays” just exacerbates the arms race in terms of early starting and outside support versus having the time to actually learn how to play and be part of a team without such laser-focused concentration on being good and winning.
Why is there a measurable difference? I don’t know, ask God. The fact of the matter is that even at 7 there is a difference between kids athletically, academically, musically, and along all sorts of other vectors. Little League T Ball starts at 4. With 2 seasons a year, you could be on your 7th or 8th season by the time you are 7 playing 2 seasons a year (or on your 4th season if you play 1 season a year).
There is no real predictive value in measuring well a kid plays at 7. I’ve seen mediocre kids at 8 turn into very good players at 12 and I’ve seen very good 8 year olds turn it mediocre 12 year olds.
Same here.
To be fair, there are very few 7 year olds (that’s 1st grade) in travel around here, but there are more than a handful of 8 year olds and by the time they are 9, travel is in full swing.
That sounds like an opinion. A opinion that a lot of people have. An opinion that lads to an everybody plays culture. An opinion that drives good players and their dads from little league towards travel ball.
Chops? Recreational level sport continues well into high school.
Once again its not about WINNING. Why do you feel the need to keep saying that this is about winning all the time? These rules apply to everyone and people win or lose AS A TEAM. By virtue of the draft, every team has its fair share of good players, mediocre players and bad players. The controversial thing that I am saying is not that we should focus on winning, because I am not saying that.
The controversial thing that I a saying is that it is more important to keep the good player and their coach dads happy than to artificially inflate the self esteem of the bad players. Because without the good players, little leagues collapse and then there is nowhere for the bad players to play.
At that age in baseball, the difference usually comes down to which kids’ dads are playing with them in the backyard. Baseball is more of a learned skill rather than a display of raw athleticism.