Lt AF is an asshole, and is presenting himself and his positions in a very assholish fashion, BUT there’s a very important point about which he’s absolutely correct, which is that a soldier MUST follow orders. Now, there are two very important exceptions to that: (1) if the soldier believes that the order is illegal, then he not only may disobey it, he MUST disobey it (and then presumably some kind of board of inquiry will eventually decide whether or not he was correct), and (2) if the soldier believes that the order would violate his conscience, in which case, if he chooses to disobey it, he must be willing to accept the full consequences.
A soldier MAY NOT disobey an order just because he feels that order would be unpopular with the American people as a whole. And I strongly feel that policy is basically correct, as how could the military function effectively if soldiers kept tracking the latest gallup polls, and suddenly stopped obeying the moment support for the current war fell below 50%? Even if the soldier is absolutely certain that the current war is so unpopular that the current president will undoubtedly be swept out of office by a gigantic landslide next election, if the order is a lawful one, the soldier must obey.
You know Max, I do not think anybody in this thread would disagree with your last post. Nobody was suggesting that soldiers should follow the whim of polls. We were just trying to point out that the military is supposed to serve the people of this country. That it is subject to civilian control. That the president is supposed to represent the will of the people.
Finn, your joke is a version of an old clasic. I had poster that described the different methods employed to clear a drop zone. On one side was a picture of a B-52 and on the other was a picture of a Ranger in a HALO rig in freefall with a claymore taped to the front of his helmet and the clacker clutched in one hand and a CAR-15 in the other. Funniest damn poster I ever saw. (Just thought I would share that)
All of which is true… but that doesn’t make any of what Lt is saying WRONG. When a soldier is given an order, his decision making process as to whether or not to follow the order should have absolutely 100% nothing to do with “the will of the people”. If the will of the people is not being represented in how the military is being used, then the people have various means (the most obvious one being elections) to remedy that situation, none of which involve individual soldiers saying “hey, screw that, I serve the people of the country”.
BS, have you read the whole thread? We were specifically addressing his claim that the only civilian in his chain of command was the President. I pointed out that both the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of the Airforce were in fact civilians and in his chain of command. We were not addressing the general policy merits of individual soldiers making decisions about following orders.
askeptic, why did you gloss over this statement by me?
SECDEF and SECAF are in my functional chain of command, but in regards to issuing orders to military troops neither is empowered as such. They are there to create and/or modify DoD/USAF policy and doctrine.
The bottom line, which is indisputable, is that the civilian populace has no control what-so-ever over the US Military. They have electoral powers over those that DO have control over the military.
I’ll be happy to be the punching bag in this thread until my guest membership expires on 29 July.
Oh, to the individual questioning my service in the middle-east I did, in fact, just return off of and AEF 5/6 rotation. I was at Ali Al Saleem AB in Kuwait and moved back and forth between there and Al Dahfra for 4 months with various Army detachments.
In a populist manner, no, not that kind of will of the people. But in terms of law, both national and international, then yes.
Of course. Doing otherwise would be a military coup, and that’d be less than good.
If, however, an order came down the chain of command which violated national or international law, it would be a soldier’s duty to know the law, and know to refuse to carry out the order.
I agree. And I pointed that out in my very first post. That still has nothing to do with what seems to me to be the base claim here, which is statements like this:
As for the Secretary of Defense, etc., I am hardly an authority on the topic, but LT’s claim (that they are in decision making positions, but not technically in his chain of command) sounds correct to me.
Well, to be fair, that wasn’t what I was debating with him. I am not disturbed by the statement that civilians can’t issue orders. I am disturbed, very much so, by the attitude that a soldier is a servant of The Leader, and that he should follow orders without first questioning them to see if they’re in accord with national or international law.
You can’t protect the constitution unless you know what it says. You can’t follow international law unless you’re familiar with it. And the military was created and exists at the will of We the People, even if we can’t hand down orders.
Then of course there’s LTAF’s “Fuck the rest of the world” rhetoric, and I see him as a very distasteful example of a certain brand of Americanism.
What Finn, said. My original assertion was in response to LTAF’s factually incorrect assertion that there was no other civilian in the AF CoC than POTUS. I ws not arguing whether civilians could actually issue orders or control the military other than through the electoral process.
The rest of LTAF’s vitriol is to depressing to contemplate. The fact that our military comprises officers like him (if he is one) is distressing to say the least. But we managed to survive that whingnut LeMay I guess we can handle a guy like LTAF.
PS LTAF Are you by chance a FAC? I had the privilage of working with several FACs in the gulf. I must admit that after PJs, FACs were some of the best AF guys I worked with. FACs do one of the toughest most dangerous and thankless jobs and most of them do it extremely well. Putting aside our differences for a minute, I wish you well and hope you return safely to your family after each of your deployments. You guys got stuck having to do a shitty job, I wish you had not been sent over there but I wish you safety and a speedy return.
Did you even bother to read anything I wrote or are you just piling on based on the other people that have attacked me in this thread? I made it 100% fucking clear that the lawfulness of an order IS a consideration when a soldier decides to follow it.
How the hell did you miss that? I think I said it AT LEAST 2 seperate times in this thread!
No I’m not a FAC. And I’m already back from the region. Yes I’ve been shot at (at least my vehicle has been) numerous times, though not as much as a Controller.
Anyway, to Redfury, fuck yourself. To Unwritten Nocturne even though your badassness makes me shit in my pants I’d gladly step up to the plate to knock your block off you internet-toughguy you.
Naw, I don’t read stuff, just do what other people tell me to. Spot on.
Yes, and you also made it clear that it’s not your job to second guess orders and that the legality of an order would be ‘intuitive’ in many cases. In other words, although you give lip service to following the law, you actually follow the orders. A key distinction. You also totally dodged my question about Iraq and international law.
My apologies. You are a janus faced thug whose words and beliefs are making the world less safe for Americans.
I see we have reached the end game. The part where you are painted into a corner and try to switch to slap fight tactics to distract from the fact that your entire arguement was in response to a position I never took.
Where is this question I dodged? I can’t find any questions about Iraq/international law by you in this thread. In fact, I can’t find any real questions by you at all. I see some rhetorical questions that are there to try to fan the flame but otherwise it’s all statements by some fuckin goon to me.
I give lip service to following the law but I actually follow the orders? WTF does that translate into? I’m sure there are alot more well-spoken people on here that can explain to you how that doesn’t make any sense at all and how I’ve said nothing in this thread to indicate that I follow unlawful orders.
You’re a fucking idiot man. You’re issues are all based on shit I never said and, though that may fly in a verbal conversation, in print it’s pretty easy to keep track of who is saying what.
Look harder. The question was what consideration you gave to the legality of obeying orders to operate in Iraq, as part of the invasion or its aftermath. If the answer is ‘none’, then you’re contradicting everyting you’ve been shouting about in your past few replies. If you did give it consideration, we’d like to here how you arrived at your decision.
“This book is a mirror. When a monkey looks in, no philosopher looks back out.”
It will be amusing to see our good jingoist continue to insult my intelligence and the soundness of my argument with mighty handwaving and lockstep marching. I quake. I quake.