Well, that’s a separate discussion. However, I think that it’s a GOOD thing to have procedures to cover emergency situations. Not because people in emergencies are idiots and can’t possibly make decisions. But because people in emergencies are flustered and nervous and sometimes forget obvious things. Thus, I think it’s totally reasonable for a military organization to have procedures it automatically follows in an emergency, assuming they can be overridden by someone on the scene in command when appropriate. I also don’t think that it’s a sign of anything at all when one of those procedures isn’t overridden until (gasp) 4 days later, when the only harm it’s causing is one of PR, which is not irrelevant, but is also not supercrucial.
And a procedure like this (keep people away from a dangerous place) is certainly not prima facie ridiculous. I’d MUCH rather err on the side of caution, and have the rule be that in an emergency, by default, people will be kept away, until someone decides otherwise, rather than saying that in an emergency, someone will have to decide whether people should be kept away from this particular emergency, then communicate that information around, which might be hard, what with it being an EMERGENCY and all…
I certainly don’t deny the possibility (heck, the near certainty) that the military has many stupid procedures. But the mere concept of having procedures, and following them, is NOT as stupid as it sometimes sounds. And this procedure is totally reasonable. It should have been rescinded a bit quicker in the current situation, but that is a VERY minor complaint.
(a) I don’t know
(b) I’m sure the people who live in nearby communities and get lots of revenue from US servicemen spending money don’t mind
(c) how is it at all relevant to the current discussion? I’ll give you credit and NOT assume that it’s just because you are feeling particularly kneejerk anti-US-military right now. Surely it can’t be that, can it?
I think not rescinding it much sooner was badly thought out (or, more likely, not thought out at all), regrettable, and an INCREDIBLY minor deal. I think making it in the first place was totally reasonable.
I must’ve missed the state of emergency being declared across Greater London.
(a) As part of mutual protection, dating back to the cold war
(b) How is that relevant?
(c) Because of comments in this thread that the USAF should always make its own independent decisions, that it shouldn’t have to justify them to anyone, etc. If they’re here as part of mutual military co-operation, they need to start trusting the people dealing with situations such as last Thursday. Making their own decisions based on their own assessment of the situation, not taking any account of what they’re being told by the rest of the country, doesn’t look like very good co-operation to me.
Gorillaman you sound like an asshole and it is totally clear to me that you have NEVER been in the military. Hell, I’d bet that you don’t even KNOW anyone in the military do you?
“Why don’t you guys think for yourselves? Why couldn’t they skip the procedure and BLAH BLAH BLAH”.
It’s the fucking military you moron. People on the ground don’t just create or modify policy on a fucking whim.
The USAF is the most powerful/deadly military force IN THE WORLD. There are people in this dominant force who are straight out of high school yet still have their hands on the deadliest most damaging weaponry ever created. Rules, policies and regulations are there NOT to be questioned. They are there to keep these kids from hurting YOU or hurting THEMSELVES. We don’t decide on the fly what we will or will not do unless we have no other choice.
So FUCK OFF you overbearing asshole. Christ you sound like a bitch…
The account I read was right here on the SDMB as I recall, you go look for it if you want, it was written by a person who claimed to be a Brit. :: shrug :::
My point was to show that a person could take most any one reaction to events and spin up a whole tirade of silliness and misconception about a whole group or nation of people.
I personally think the London folks have more guts than sense.
How many of the folks of London sent their teenaged children to the ground zeros to run about an show them damn terrorist that people of London were not afraid and to “show them”???
You all are making blanket assumptions about the courage of and thoughts of the entire USAF and a blanket commination of the people of the USA. Well, you are an idiot too — Nah nah nah
The Brits are the best Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah,
Oh, and just why does England need help in showing disdain for terrorist, you all have never asked for the USA’s help in anything else… right? It would seem you are not so sure of yourselves that if the rest of the peoples do not follow your lead … what? Need your hand held?
You can dish it out but can’t take it much…
I personally love the “British Mystic” and have nothing but admiration for 99.9999999% of them, much more so, as a group, than those of my own country, … but … the bullheadedness that you display was just begging for a slam of stereotyping. You got one… Tough.
The response alone was mocked, not the tragedy. To narrow it further it was the response of the fringe right wing and the administration i was comparing actions to.
It remains to be seen if the long term response will be better than that of the US administration. I am not exactly a fan of our current leadership either.
Brilliant, just brilliant. Only people who have been in the military can comment on the military? You idiot. (And you’re very wrong on the last point, too.)
That’s not what we’ve been saying. I know that military orders are there to be followed. We’re making the observation that the procedure in place was a really really stupid one. You’re refusing to even contemplate the concept.
So, it was wrong of me to call exploding bombs killing dozens of people an “emergency” because no state of emergency was declared?
I made no such comments, and any such blanket comments are idiotic. Obviously, the USAF should coordinate with local law enforcement, etc. BUT, unless there was already a mechanism in place wherein, in the event of a terrorist attack in London, the USAF would call up the office of Is-London-Safe-Again and immediately yield authority to them as far as lifting travel bans is concerned, then I don’t see how they were ignoring anyone.
Again, at some point did some London law enforcement or anti-terrorism official call up the Air Force and say “he, we’re quite sure it’s safe, here are our reasons why, please come back” and the Air Force told them to suck it?
You dumb fucker. You can comment all you want to. YOU are the one who is prancing around with with all the criticism about how a situation that you were not involved in, that was handled by an organization that you’ve never been a part of, in a region of the world in which you do not live. What the fuck is your buy-in here jackson? Apparently you are one of those shitstains that loves to sit back and criticise the actions of your nations military without ever joining up to “show us how it’s done”.
Turn off the tube, roll off your moms couch, sign on the dotted line and get out here and help us figure out the right way to do things.
That IS what you’ve been saying toolbox. Go back and reread the shit you have been writing.
Fuck you are the most dense SDMB member I’ve ever had the dishonor of duking it out with.
Um, Lt AF, GorillaMan lives in Suffolk. England. Where there are one or two USAF bases, yes? And within half an hour’s train journey of where the bombings were going on, if I read the “tractor boy” reference aright?
You’ve been paying attention here, haven’t you? :rolleyes:
BTW, an officer, albeit a junior one, in the most powerful air force in the world, should be able to manage to get his points across without calling anyone a dumb fucker – especially when a basic ignorance of certain facts as to whom you’re debating with leaves a very real risk of getting egg on face. :dubious:
I am in the USAF so I guess I am qualified to tell you to STFU. You are making other Airmen look like morons, so shut up. GM is mad because he thinks that the procedures were overkill (which I and others don’t agree with) and should be changed, not because he thinks we should not follow orders and think for ourselves. BTW… since you are brand new, I would suspect that your comment about him being the densest member you have duked it out with makes you a sock.
Correct - the two bases here are the ones that we’ve been talking about. I’m trying not to laugh at the irony of Lt AF’s suggestion I reread the thread
One point of disagreement, drgnrdr07 - while Lt AF is a poor advertisement for his uniform and all it stands for, he’s only making himself look like a moron; and I guess that’s not too hard, at that.
Parenthetically, it is hard to live in East Anglia and not be very well aware of a significant period in history when we were well aware of, and extremely grateful for, the courage and dedication of American aviators. I may, with other English posters in this thread, berate the USAF for this spineless-looking decision, but I for one certainly wouldn’t tar the whole Service or the whole nation with a broad brush on that account. You may shake your head over something your favourite kid brother does; you can still love him to pieces.
I know that he speaks for himself ultimately, but I still feel like he is representing me with his vitrol filled comments. Officers are supposed to be our levelheaded leaders yet he has shown none of it in any of his posts I have read. For him to react the way he does by yelling at others and calling them unpatriotic (even if they aren’t American) is just really pissing me off.
It’s not my job to make you happy here son. I’m not speaking for the AF and neither are you, or you better not be seeing as representing your opinions as the opinions of the USAF in a public forum (on or off line) is against the regs.
My troops love working for me because I don’t take shit from assholes who criticise their driving from the passenger seat and that’s exactly what’s happening here. That’s also why I’m the 2-star’s #2 CGO out of 96.
It makes me ill when I see Americans trying to justify their actions to foreigners like they owe them some explaination or something when they in fact do not.
BTW, the details of GorillaMans living situation don’t change the meaning of my post. I stand by it.
Son? Who the fuck do you think you are? Maybe instead of making up strawman arguments you could actually try to argue against real ones. No where in here did I say my word was official AF policy. While you are at it maybe you should read up on your regs. You know, the whole part about acting in a manner that becomes an officer, which you seem to have thrown out the window. This is one of the reasons that I am glad I am about to be out (on terminal leave as we speak)… gung-ho asswipes like yourself.
There is no arguement here jackson. The USAF doesn’t have any requirements that state that we have to have popular policies and that other nations, or even US civilians, need to agree with our operational methods. You’re the one who is concerned about convincing people who enjoy bashing the US as to why the choices of the USAF are legit. I don’t care if they understand. My job is to execute my mission to the best of my ability.
You are a prime example of someone who would not make a good military leader. You would rather spend your time trying to explain your commands so that everyone would feel “warm fuzzies” about them rather than executing them. That costs lives.
