Long: If conservatives could think...

The BBQ Pit
141

No. For you conservatives, I’ll dumb it down. I called it Exhibit H because he took the OP and came up with things I never said or implied.

In retrospect, I should have narrowed the quote.

Exhibit H

I did not say liberals are superior to conservatives. I don’t think I said anything about liberals at all. I questioned conservatives’ thinking skills.

Frankly, if a conservative doesn’t agree with me about an established fact, such as whether Colorado is a community property state, I don’t think that makes them so much dumb as bullheaded.

142

If that was quite obvious to you then you, my friend, must be a conservative, am I right?

143

When one is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

You lean left. You already have a premise that conservatives are stupid and look for examples to justify your premise.

So, what’s the point in trying to prove you wrong? You’ve already made up your mind.

144

Hey, except for the senators, these people are my relatives and friends. I like them, I enjoy their company, and they are not stupid.

That’s just it–I don’t think conservatives are stupid. I think their thought processes are different. I have seen nothing in this thread to refute that, but go ahead, prove me wrong.

145

Why bother? You’re just going to dismiss it.

Enjoy.

146

For a little more perspective, here is Bricker’s not-so-long-ago thread complaining about the liberals’ “war on Christmas”. :smiley:

Truly a thing of beauty, it was.

147

These threads always surprise me. I just think people would be smarter and more aware of selective perception.

I could argue that black people are stupid and give a couple of examples of stupid black people I met.

I could argue that Jews are greedy and give a couple of examples of greedy jews I met.

I could argue that liberals are vacuous and unrealistic and naive and give some examples of airheaded liberals I met.

In each case I’m not really saying much about blacks, jews, or liberals, but really saying a lot about myself.

If you think conservatives ignore evidence that runs contrary to their beliefs than you will tend to note examples where this is true and attribute it to the conservatism.

If you meet a liberal who’s the same way you won’t attach a causative relationship simply because you don’t believe one exists. You’ll attribute their stubbornness to something else besides their politics.

You tend to find what you are looking for, note evidence that supports your conclusions and discount evidence that runs contrary to it. This is not a conservative or a liberal thing, it is a human thing. People do it all the time, even when they are aware of it and trying not to, which is why scientists insist on double blind samples to eliminate bias.

I look at the OP and those in agreement as people who are wondrously naive of this bias. The same mechanism here is in operation that made blacks slaves, denied women the vote and has led to much of the struggle and persecution and the atrocities that mark most of human history.

Whether it is directed at conservatives, liberals, jews, blacks, orientals, left-handed newspaper boys or anyone else I don’t think it should be tolerated.

I think people who are prone to this sort of prejudice, disseminate and perpetuate it are profoundly ignorant.

148

Can do. You exhibit behavior identical to that which you are complaining about. Doubtless those others don’t recognize their own stubborn ignorance, just as you don’t.

The common thread here isn’t conservatism, rather it’s your genetic heritage and that you hang out with people who are like you. You only see this flaw you share with them when you experience a difference of opinion with them. When their stubborness and ignorance aligns with your own, you are oblivious to it.

You link it with the opposing political philosophy which gives you the context to selectively recognize it.

Classic selective perception.

149

But, Scylla, surely you understand that conservatism, if it means anything at all, means moving very slowly, if at all, off one’s preconceived ideas, it means to have a deep respect for the status quo, it means to reject that which is new or radically different from what we have now…while liberalism, if it means anything is to be open to new processes, often untestted or uncertain processes, to have a certain tolerance for risk, to question authority and sometimes to reject it outright–aren’t these all as true as generalizations get?

If that is so, how can you simply paint with a broad brush all political ideologies as identical, and any attempt to distinguish one from the other as simple bigotry? This isn’t about smart and dumb, but it is about feeling comfortable with thinking and being uncomfortable. I don’t know how I’m a bigot for thinking that conservatives don’t enjoy new ideas as much as liberals do. Maybe the old ideas are smart and the new ones are dumb–that’s not the point here, I don’t think.

150

I don’t think you need to dumb anything down for me. You see, the point is that the response may have been a little bit of a non-sequiter, but it really didn’t qualify as one of your “exhibits” because it didn’t support your thesis. Which was that conservatives are bullheaded, as you point out here. What about that post was bullheaded, exactly?

151

Good point. Where I think you didn’t quite nail it is that the essence of conservatism isn’t being slow and the essence of liberalism isn’t being fast. I would tend to think that conservatives tend toward being fixed in their basic philosophical principles while liberals are more relativists. That’s the basic difference. It leads to tendencies that you note; conservative respect for the status quo, liberal openness to new ideas.

I’m a conservative, and I’m a pretty original type guy. I’m a flexible thinker. I’ve admitted I’m wrong, or changed my mind many times on this board. Probably between the two of us we can come up with examples of very stubborn liberals and very stubborn conservatives here. Vice versa, too.

Personally I think intellectual stubbornness or a willingness to drink the kool-aid is a character flaw, not a byproduct of political persuasion.

152

Show me where I exhibited this behavior.

153

What?

The Nazi attack on the Soviet Union began on June 22nd. That is nearly as far away from winter as it’s possible to get: the winter solstice is December 21-22, the summer one is June 20-21. So he was one day off from being 6 months away from winter.

154

Okay, you want a list of stupid shit that I have known liberals to believe?

Let’s start with Marxism. Discredited universally by anyone with half a brain, it was still the darling of lefty professors on campuses well into the 1990’s after even the Russians abandoned it. Today you can still find large swaths of leftists who trumpet Marxism.

Che Guevera worship. Still very common on the left, despite the fact that Che Guevera was a murdering thug who helped build the hellhole that is Communist Cuba.

In Canada, the left has always been quite enamored with Fidel Castro, with Pierre Trudeau considering him a close personal friend. His son Justin recently flew to Cuba to visit Castro in the hospital.

Sean Penn can do a tour of Venezuela and sing the praises of Hugo Chavez and shout “vive la revolucion!” with him - then come back here and complain that George Bush is trying to take away everyone’s rights.

For that matter, if the entire Hollywood left rubbed their brain cells together, they’d be lucky to make a spark.

Then there’s the left-wing environmental movement - the ones who protest windmills because they kill the birds, nuclear power plants because they will kill us all, hydro plants because they destroy the ecosystem, thus dooming us to keep using the status quo - coal and natural gas. But wait - that’s destroying the planet too.

Remember the loonies who tried to stop the Cassini mission, because there was a small RTG onboard? I’ll bet there wasn’t a conservative to be found in that bunch.

Then there are those on the left who are convinced beyond all reason that corporate America is a destructive force, that capitalists are generally evil and greedy, and who refuse to understand the various mechanisms that make markets work, choosing instead to believe that without the benevolent hand of government controlling all things, chaos would ensue.

Then there’s trade protectionism, for which support runs about 80%/20% between liberals and conservatives. Again, this is one of the most settled issues in economics, but Liberals insist on believing that ‘buy local’ is a superior economic strategy. They also refuse to understand the economic need for ‘sweat shops’, or how international trade lifts 3rd world nations up.

In the 80’s, I had plenty of debates with liberals who, though they knew absolutely nothing about geopolitics or the history of warfare, were absolutely convinced that if the U.S. would just unilaterally disarm, Russia would put down its weapons as well and we’d all pick flowers and live in harmoney together. All they were saying was, give peace a chance.

Imagine no possessions. I wonder if you can? I know liberals who believe this is deep insight.

I had plenty of arguments with insufferable young lefties who were convinced the Soviet Union was paradise on earth. After all, it was like one big union! Everyone made the same amount of money, there was full employment, and everyone had health care and an education. The Kremlin used to bus these ‘useful idiots’ in and take them on tours of Potemkin villages, then send them back home to help drum up support for the cause of International Socialism and nuclear disarmament.

And in my experience, the new-agey, Gaia-loving, Tarot-reading, psychic, Goddess-worshipping community is about 98% liberal.

And who can forget the brilliance of the Radical Cheerleaders once you’ve heard them?

155

Well, perhaps the old left had its fair share of fellow travelers and McCarthyism did little to help the image, but this was a flirtation with an idea before the horrors of Leninism were well known.

Today, there really isn’t a radical left, not one with any influence.

It seems the popular mainstream pseudoscience is supported by centrists which only adds a false credibility to junk thought.

156

Is it possible that conservative recalcitrance in the face of facts (if it exists at all) is a by-product of their recent electoral success? The recent congressional election sent many swing districts to the Democrats; so much so that I’ve heard some analysis that the remaining Republican members are from the safest districts and feel no pressure for bipartisan compromise. By the same token, the last generation of conservatives seems to have had a large agenda. The debateable stuff, like tax breaks and welfare reform, have already happened. Encouraged by those successes, they’ve dug their heels in on the rest, like saying global warming isn’t happening.

If time moved arbitrarily in either direction, you’d be right. But if you send your tanks rolling during the spring thaw, you’ve got about eight months before winter starts kicking their ass.

157

If you can’t debate honestly, then go to Great Debates. When it’s time to argue about the modern American left, we’ll let you know. This discussion is about conservatives versus liberals.

158

Can you name any? I mean, if there are so many as to comprise “large swaths”, then Shirley you can name some we’ve heard of, and show them gushing over Unca Karl.

And how much do you credit to living 90 miles from the richest, most powerful country on Earth that hates your guts? To paraphrase Diaz, pity poor Cuba, so far from God, so close to the USA.

Pierre Trudeau is a lefty?

I have not claimed Sean Penn as my spokesman, you assigned him to me on your own accord. And the main complaint with The Leader is not that he so much wanted to take away everyone’s rights, but that he was so free in assigning extra rights unto himself.

Examples, please, of the Hollywood Right’s intelligence and perspicacity. Red Dawn?

That’s quite enough methane out of you, young man!

There are some of us who fail to understand the sublime benevolence of the Free Market.

Its a strategy for sharing, not a strategy for winning.

Those quote marks speak volumes. What, they don’t really exist? Or we fail to understand what lucky duckies they are?

We did. Its why we’re still here. Still got all those bombs. To protect us from you guys, I guess.

Can you? If you do, must you run to a bank and perform penance?

While I was listening to conservative gas-bags who were utterly certain that Sweden would collapse this year. For forty years, and counting.

If its Ayn Rand or the Goddess, no contest. Goddess got bountiful bosom, Rand just got venom sacs.

Maybe would have forgotten, had I ever heard.

Honest, Sam gotta wonder: do you actually know any lefties?

159

I would like to use this to demonstrate how that conversation could have gone a different way. If the conservative in the case I stated had said, “Lots of fiddle players shave the bridge flatter so they can play double stops more easily, so, strictly speaking, they can be physically different,” I think the other person would have accepted that. Can’t say for sure. But it’s very different than, “Well, I was told they were different.” The violin player, being the more knowledgeable one, could also have said this, but she didn’t.

And in the community property example, my friend could have said, “It’s my understanding that, in the case of divorces, Colorado’s property division standards are pretty similar to those in community property states.” That could be the case, and if she’d said that, rather than insisting, wrongly, that Colorado is a community property state, I wouldn’t have argued. But she didn’t.

160

Yes, there are liberals who believe in wacky stuff. Are you saying that if liberals could think, they wouldn’t be liberals?

PS–I had never heard of the cheerleaders, that’s hilarious. I had also never heard of being against wind farms because they kill birds. Sounds like somebody should get on installing wind farms near airports.