While I’m certainly not saying your friend is right, let’s just remember that most innovative thinkers have appalled their friends and formal scientists for centurys.
Sorry to have to correct you, but the waivers are good at all PUBLIC schools in California. Private schools do not have to allow the waivers, however. Please, please be careful here…a statement like this is what sent me back to the shot room (that is what Kaiser called it at the time)so that Sam could get his (disastrous) vaccination. If ANY ONE out there doubts this, please have them Email me and I will tell them how to do this. No locality may override these waivers.
Then they didn’t have their waivers signed. Or your county is in direct and flagrant violation of the law. Again, anyone in Ca. having a problem with this, Email me.
YOU PARSE WRONG. Absolutely. And once again, please be wary of only partial understanding of this crucial law. IF you sign the waiver for any of the above reasons,it is not arbitrary. This does NOT protect you from the often obnoxious calls from Public Health Nurses who have NOT done their homework, but are only parroting what the local countys are telling them to say. Ok, I’m not being very charitable, but the ones I’ve talked to generally do not know any side but the textbook…and once again, you will NOT get the true statistics unless you READ product inserts, CDC bulletins and web info that you can find.
Point of fact: By signing the waiver, you agree that should there be an outbreak of one of the diseases commonly vaccinated, you may be asked to remove your child from public school for the duration of the outbreak. As I believe I stated before, that’s not a decision for Rocket Scientists…OF COURSE I’d remove my child for that period of time.
Because I am in Ca., I am not familiar with the laws of other states.
This is a subject I (obviously) feel passionate about. I’ve worked for more than a decade preserving the law here in Ca. Sorry if I sound adamant, but I do feel that way.
I would like to echo some of daniels comments… every person coming out against innoculations had cited evidence indicating that Pertussis is a possible (if controversial) dangerous element.
Does anyone have any SPECIFIC objections to MMR (Measles/Mumps/Rubella), Polio oral vaccine, or Tetanus? (Chicken pox I think many poeple consider optional and I believe Hep B is usually given later in life).
Also, as far as caring for the “greater good” realize that some of you have the luxury of opting out of vaccinations BECAUSE most people do vaccinate – these were often fatal and highly contagious childhood diseases that could sweep through communities. Since most children do not get these diseases nowadays due to innoculation, your local chances of getting it will be reduced. (am I making sense here?).
Let’s cut through the crap: It is really very stupid for a person NOT to vaccinate their child. Refusing to vaccinate puts the child and community at a serious risk.
Someone has already mention this, but I’ll mention it again: if you’re one of those who thinks it is perfectly O.K. not to vaccinate your child, you need to go here:
And the CAUSE of my son’s disability is the vaccine. Damn nice of the lawmakers to pass a law making a vaccine mandatory and then not informing the parents of the risk/benefit ration. Ditto for the docs.
Look, I’m not opposed to you vaccinating YOUR child. And if you are certain that the vaccine will protect your child, then you certainly should do so. My arguement is that the shot DOESN’T afford the immunity it should for the disability it could cause. So, therefore, I wouldn’t give the vaccine to my dog. I’ve been in the field for some 15 years now seeing the havoc the vaccine has wrought upon innocent children and their families. Mostly parents who don’t realize that (in Ca.) we DO have a choice!
So it seems to me that the choices here are to either to blindly follow like a sheep, or to be INFORMED as to the side effects of the drug being administered AS WELL as the disease and THEN make your choices. Greater good, be DAMNED. I want healthy children and I’m no sheep.
Let’s also make clear that if there was a vaccine out there (and tetnus does fill that bill)that was/is safe, then I’m not opposed. And yes, my kids had that shot AFTER I did my homework.
And don’t tell me that nothing is risk free. I am certainly aware of that. But most of things that were posted earlier…depend on choice. I chose not to eat fast food and fried chicken as well. I didn’t allow my kids to eat sugar, etc. etc.
Crafter_Man - Thanks! That’s exactly the sort of info I’m looking for. For some reason, I’ve always had the worst luck finding anything I’m looking for at quackwatch. Their UI is not particularly well thought out. Haven’t they heard of a search function? Honestly.
Manhattan - Thank you. Your moderation is a load off my mind.
Dzdmona - Hmm. Interesting. I may have my information exactly backwards. I was under the impression that the waiver was necessary but not sufficient to allow a child to enter a public school unvaccinated, and that it was private schools, such as those set up by Christian Scientists, that have more liberal policies.
Oh, and I see you’re another veteran of Kaiser “health care”. They’re the primary reason I haven’t seen a doctor in almost a decade…
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Let’s cut through the crap: It is really very stupid for a person NOT to vaccinate their child. Refusing to vaccinate puts the child and community at a serious risk.
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Michael, There are many, many good reasons not to vaccinate a child. If you’ve been keeping up with this thread, you’ll see some of them mentioned. It was really stupid for my son to vaccinated. It has ended up costing your government quite a bit of money, not just in the settlement of our claim, but also in judicating that claim. This was for a couple of reasons: 1: As a trusting parent, I knew nothing of vaccine reactions. If I had, I would have been able to support my contention that the previous shot had made my son ill and argued intelligently with the doctor and nurse who were trying (and did) to convince me to vaccinate my child. 2: If my pediatrician had been better schooled in vaccine reaction, SHE would have recognized the vaccine reaction 3: Ditto for the Nurse Practioner. The doctor has since admitted this, both to me and my attorney.
Why didn’t they recognize the reaction? Because in med schools, at least in the '70’s they were taught that a reaction was an extremely rare occurance, they didn’t know what it looked like **WHILE ** it was happening. They only knew that it was rare and devastating.
IMHO the folks at quakewatch do a grave disservice by slanting information offered. Yes, it will support you if what you are looking for is that the vaccine is a benign life saver. Please note that not once have I given you a link. I won’t do that. If you are going to make a decision on whether to vaccinate or not, I encourage you to do you very own research. Know the pros and cons and weigh the decision. It’s a tough one. If it’s too tough, then go to the default, by all means. But in my shoes…I didn’t (and wouldn’t) worry about the community, only my kid seizing in the emergency room.
But, of course, you do need to know that having a damaged kid, even if minimally, or at the other end of the spectrum a possibly dead child doesn’t seem to be a luxury. Yes, the diseases were/are awful. So is an injured child. And once again, NO, it wasn’t worth it for me to sacrifice my child for the greater good.
Daniel, my child, or anyones child could NOT be a carrier. They would either have the disease or not. I’m not sure what your beef is here, but as I explained before, if you decide to take this course of action, you need to protect your child from illness. Did your mother do less? Most likely not. And neither do mothers who decide that the risk is too great to innoculate their children.
And as also stated and verified, well over 90% of all cases of pertussis were in vaccinated people. Pertussis is indigenous. It exists. It’s not the hippy-dippy’s kid contaminating yours.
Adults are not immune to pertussis, because the vaccine has worn off. We don’t continue to get shots for it because it’s a mild disease in older people.
I’m not sure why I’m keeping this thread alive, but here’s a fallacy that I must have missed the first time thru. The pertussis is NOT given to adults because it’s an active neurotoxin. To give it to an adult would be to render them a neurological epileptic vegetable, almost 100% of the time. There was an incident in Florida in the 80’s where a bunch of immigrants were given the DPT in error instead of the DT. I don’t have the case study, but I’m sure I could find it if someone is interested. Let me know.
If you’ve ever wondered why so many chiropractors are anti-vaccination, read this chapter from this excellent book (entirely on-line!):
“Bonesetting, Chiropractic, and Cultism”
Chapter 9: Chiropractors and Poliomyelitis
by Dr. Samuel Homola, DC (yes, he’s a chiropractor): http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/09.html
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Here are some of the best links. If any of them seem to be unreliable (anti-vax propaganda), please let me know.
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There is something about someone who calls every opposing view PROPAGANDA that makes me incredibly suspicious. Keep an open mind and look at ALL sides. It’s your kid’s life they are injecting into. Healthy skepticism is good for the world. Unless you are a sheep or someone who needs to be spoonfed.
Gawd, I’ve been moderating this forum since February and this is the first time I’ve ever had to admonish someone twice in the same thread. I can’t tell you how disappointed I am that I have to do that.
I can, however, tell you how disappointed you will be if I have to do it again. Consider this an official Moderator’s Warning. Your behavior is contrary to the rules of this forum and is unacceptable.
Fortunately, you will be unable to do it again in this thread while it is in this forum, because I’m moving it to Great Debates, fyslee’s valiant attempts to link to some science notwithstanding.
There used to be two basic kinds of vaccines:
1} live attenuated virus
2) killed virus
These are exactly what the sound like they are.
The live virus, though more dangerous led to greater immunity, while the killed virus was safer but lacked efficacy.
With the advent of genetic engineering vaccines are safer and more effective that ever. What is now being done is that the virus is engineered to remove the sites on the genome that cause disease, adhesion, reproduction, etc.
The main part of the virus that is generally required to produce immunity is the protein coat. So you can leave that on and mess with the genome quite a bit.
I would suggest that the baby be innoculated. Vaccines are safer than they’ve ever been
Manhattan, I’m sad you think that fyslee was introducing ANY bit of science into the discussion.
Biobrat, If you’ve read the thread, and read all of the articles and snippets of articles I’ve included, you’ll see that my point is backed up with fact.
Since I can’t find any evidence to the contrary of my position, and we’re now in GD, please back your statements up with cites.
As far as the info I’ve posted, I believe there was only one DTaP efficacy/reactance study, and it wasn’t much better than DPT.
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Fortunately, you will be unable to do it again in this thread while it is in this forum, because I’m moving it to Great Debates, fyslee’s valiant attempts to link to some science notwithstanding.
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While we all appreciate fyslee’s **attempt **at linking science to our debate - I believe that has been done on both sides. I’m not sure why fyslee’s post is considered more scientific than that of the CDC info that has already been posted here. Also, I’ve already voiced my opinion about presenting only one side of this issue.
After re-reading the first message, it occured to me that the title might have better been: My friends have made a decision not to vaccinate their child. Please give me information proving that they are idiots, they are infecting the entire nation, and their child will never be allowed in public school.
By all means, let’s go to the GD board where information on both sides will be welcomed and viewed with objectivity.
… a guy takes a little summer break with his family and misses all the vaccination shop talk fun.
Aside: We had a great time in the Bahamas. Wish we could have stayed longer but it’s always nice to finally get back home.
Now then, I’m not at all surprised by the almost violent knee-jerk reactions by some pro-vaccine posters. It’s natural to be weary and cautious about new ideas that are radical departures from commonly accepted practices. Particularly when those practices are buttressed by the hugely influential Pharmaceutical establishement and it’s equally powerful cousin, the Medical establishement. I’m sure this will ruffle quite a few feathers when I mention the fact that Capernicus and Galileo were similarly censured for their beliefs by the equally powerful ruling body of their time. The church certainly had as much to lose by having it’s doctrine questioned as the current pharmaceutical and medical establishements. It always amuses me that the same people seeking to expose ignorance choose the “Thousands of Doctor’s and Pharmacologists can’t be wrong” argument when discussing this issue.
I was going to provide some sources of my own to support my decision not to innoculate my kids in the first few years of their life but many of the sources have already been mentioned. The most compelling of these was the book “A shot in the dark”. I believe (I haven’t looked at it in a while) it provides many references to studies in it’s bibliography section for anyone interested in more exacting research. I certainly was and I will post some other publications on the topic tomorrow (I’m at work now and don’t have access to my collection of materials on the subject).
While many feel that this subject is finished, I would like to re-open it again by suggesting the following: While it is indeed tragic that some kids suffer or are permanently damaged or even die due to vaccination, let’s not stop examining the impact of vaccines there. What about the long term effects of vaccines on the aging population? I’m talking about the slowly evolving evidence that seems to suggest that vaccines have a detrimental long term effects on adults as well. There have been suggestions made by medical research experts (again, I’ll try to find the exact source of my claims though I suspect GaWD and DZDamona may have better information at hand) that degenerative diseases like Parkinsons, Diabetes, Gastrointestinal disorders, Alzheimers, etc, may be triggered (at least in some cases) by childhood and adult innoculations.
It is no secret that heavy metals such as mercury are part of the suspension in many vaccines injected into patients. It’s a widely held belief that such heavy metals are detrimental to human health but the pharmaceutical companies maintain that the amount of this material is too small to cause real damage even in a child. But is that really so and do they really understand what long term neurological and immunological effects thesen and other preservative type additives have on human beings?
You see, we must not only look upon vaccines from the point of view of the damage they can do to small children. We must also examine closely what negative long term effects they have on the adult population.
Please understand, I am not against immunization in theory. I think it’s a wonderful idea and on the surface, great good has been achieved in preventing outbeaks of some very awfull deseases. I am also not a ludite, as someone has so eagerly and callously dismissed all those who of us who choose to question the current party line on the subject. My wife and I, like many (but clearly not all) likeminded individuals, are reasonable and reasoning human being. We questioned, researched and evaluated all evidence pro and con vaccination and studied the risks involved. Given our family lifestyle and the relatively comfortable style of living we are able to maintain we made a guarded yet informed decision to put off early childhood immunization for our kids - pending further growing evidence and research on the subject.
Finally, for those who suggested that by not vaccinating our children we somehow play a roll in endangering other kids, I’d surely like to hear a logical and medically sound explanation for this assertion.
GaWD and Dzdmona–I completely respect your experience and your research, even as I disagree with your conclusions. As a medical student, I’ve looked into this matter a bit myself. (Not that all med students do, necessarily–similar questions on this board got me interested.)
I think that what is missing from the discussion here is a little info about whooping cough itself. Classic WC begins as a very nonspecific upper respiratory illness for 7-10 days (the prodromal stage). This is followed by two to four weeks of severe, exhausting coughing spells often followed by vomiting and apnea (the paroxysmal stage). Following this is a 3-4 week convalescent stage. The most common complications are pneumococcal pneumonia, hemorrhage and hernias caused by the coughing pressure, and convulsions due to the anoxia. These are all rare but potentially serious.
The disease is very contagious, and is most contagious in the prodromal stage–before one has any reason to suspect whooping cough. Is is most serious, and most often fatal, in infants under the age of 1 (which is why the vaccine is given so early). In adults, it is often atypical or subclinical, and these adults are the greatest reservoir of the disease and the reason it’s still around.
I don’t know where you got “whooping cough is entirely treatable”, but all of my sources (textbooks) disagree. Treatment is primarily supportive. Erythromycin given in the prodromal stage can prevent onset, but as I said, there’s no reason to suspect whooping cough at that point. Later therapy does not alter the course.
Both of my textbooks mention the potentially serious immediate effects of the vaccine. One of them mentions the controversy over long-term sequelae, and I will quote it (from Sherris Medical Microbiology, Ryan, ed.):
It goes on to mention the new vaccines on the horizon.
My personal opinion, after reading a good bit on both sides:
I will accept, for the sake of argument, that a very small number of children have permanent sequelae from the vaccine. If we did not give the vaccine, whooping cough would be very common, and a very small number of those children have permanent sequelae. (Dzdmona–you say you have never known anyone with sequelae from WC. I would argue that this is because it is quite uncommon, so you would not mathematically expect to.)
The question is, which of these very small numbers of children is larger? My conclusion is that a total stop to vaccination would result in more kids with permanent problems from the disease itself than the vaccine does. Even if the risk of permanent damage is the same with or without, the vaccine still spares the child the good possibilty of an awful two-month illness.
I also think that with adult and asymptomatic reservoirs as common as they are, the non-immunized child doesn’t pose a significant risk to his classmates or the population in general. Therefore, I believe you do have the right as a parent to refuse pertussis immunization, and as a physician I would respect that decision. I would certainly offer my opinion, and I would make sure you were competely aware of the potential risks of refusal, but I would not discount your informed conclusions.
Thank you for your respect DocJ. Most med students wouldn’t have looked into this. Glad to see we have an up-and-comer for a future MD.
Agreed, and although it is highly contagious, for an adult it is merely a bother, not life-threatening. The reason adults catch it…lack of protection from their DPT shots.
Well, if E-mycin administered in it’s beginning stages will control, calm down, or stop the illness, wouldn’t you call that treatable?
After it’s primary treatable stage, there are there are several weeks of uncomfortable symptoms, the more serious occuring in small children.
Since most whooping cough cases(over 50% in 1996), are in children, adolescents and adults over 10 years of age, and DPT, DTaP, and opther pertussis preparations are potentially lethal, and not licensed for use over the age of 6 years, we’re pretty much stuck with the rate of infection we see right now.
DocJ, No matter what your textbook claims(denies is a better word), The only available research studies, and the CDC disagree with the statement above.
Please take that with a grain of salt. In the over 50 years that DPT has been administered, there’s only been a single alternate vaccination, which is almost as bad reactance-wise.
I suppose “…that a very small number of children have permanent sequelae from the vaccine…” is all about perspective. Is one innocent death-row inmate killed in every 1000 a “very small number”? I’d say that any innocents killed, injured, or maimed was an unacceptable number.
And, are you saying that the numbers for WC damage don’t fit in to this discussion? Numbers for reactance to the vaccine seem to be unacceptable as well according to your textbook.
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A 2 month illness, or permanent damage? Bad medicine, or a good dose of prevention? I don’t remember anyone saying that we stop immunization. Only thing I request, no, demand, is a safer vaccination.
Is 1/1750 a good enough number to sacrifice your child for the slightest possibility that they might come down with a temporary, allbeit tough illness? I don’t think so.
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I also think that with adult and asymptomatic reservoirs as common as they are, the non-immunized child doesn’t pose a significant risk to his classmates or the population in general. Therefore, I believe you do have the right as a parent to refuse pertussis immunization, and as a physician I would respect that decision. I would certainly offer my opinion, and I would make sure you were competely aware of the potential risks of refusal, but I would not discount your informed conclusions.
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Thank you Doc, for realising that one child in a daycare center, unimmunized, will not cause the pertussis bacterium, endemic to our society to cause a whole epidemic.
In 1996, there were just over 5100 cases in the U.S. 95% of all children under 2 have their first 2 rounds of DPT. Those children, many years later are the largest resevoir of WC there is.
