Can anyone suggest some good reading in the sci-fi/fantasy genre where the villain ultimately wins?
I’m not looking for situations where the victory is only temporary- I’d like to find an evil villain- the more evil the better- who ultimately crushes his foes. I’ll even take a situation where the struggle with Good is ongoing, but the scales are undeniably tipped in favor of Evil.
Thanks in advance,
-j
SW 1, 2, 3. And 3 hasn’t been released yet. 
Seriously, though, that wouldn’t be interesting after the first time. The bad guys usually start their evil plots from a position of strength in some way, so if they win, who cares?
I debated including SW movies in my list of things NOT to mention… silly me 
I know you were joking somewhat, but I just want to clarify for anyone else, that I’d prefer books to any other medium.
But that’s an awful big assumption. I believe that a well-written book with the “bad guy” winning would have to buck alot of conventions. Why would it have to begin with Evil having the upper hand? Why couldn’t it follow Evil’s plans to overthrow good from planning to execution?
For me, a well-developed, multi-layered bad guy has always been mush more interesting than a good guy, although in the end, it always comes down to the quality of the writing.
…and if your assertion that it wouldn’t be interesting more than once (which I don’t accept anyways) were true- then where’s that “one” that ruined it for the rest? I’d at least be interested in reading that!
I’m not sure if this counts for what you’re looking for or not, but there’s plenty of alternate history novels with Nazi Germany winning WWII and dominating Europe. The most famous instances for this genre include Robert Harris’ Fatherland and Len Deighton’s SS-GB.
Spoiler, of course.
Arguably, the “graphic novel” Watchmen falls into this category. If you haven’t read it, I strongly suggest you do so. It’s a wonderful examination of and critique of the entire “costumed super-hero” genre. The best and most original point comes when the villain (I won’t say who – read the book), having explained his Evil Plot to the Heroes, is met with the response “When were you planning on doing this?” by the Heroes.
To which he responds:“I’m not a Republic serial villain. Do you think I would be telling you my Master Plan if there were any chance of your interfering? I did it fifteen minutes ago.”
Of course, this being a critical examination of the whole issue, it’s somewhat ambiguous if the “villain” is a “villain”, or if the Evil Plot is really Evil. Even though a lot of people get killed.
Actually, those are good examples. I’ve read some of them: the South wins (OK, not a great example of Evil per se), the Nazis win, etc.
I guess ideally what I’m looking for would lie more solidly in the fantasy realm. I’m thinking more in terms of the quintessential bad guy: extremely dark, intelligent, conniving, manipulative- throw in some special powers maybe: magic, mind manipulation, whatever, but ultimately interested in establishing either all-out chaos or simply imposing his/her dark will on others.
But at the same time, I would hope that the character would be “human” enough for the reader to want him/her to win, or at least get a thrill from his/her schenanigans.
Maybe a Flagg-esque character, but written wiwth the compassion of Weiss/Hickman’s treatment of Raistlin?
Watchmen, check. Thanks, Cal
Keep 'em coming!
Cal took mine 
The most obvious: 1984
The movie Swordfish is crap, but it’s ambiguous crap.
er… you were posting to the Bad Movie Appreciation thread right? If not, disregard my previous post.
James Blish Black Sunday
I found Black Sunday, by Thomas Harris, and Black Easter, by James Blish- but not what you mentioned?
Are you sure about the title/author combo?
Not a book, but it’s a lot of what you’re looking for:
Berserk. It’s an anime that they’ve just started releasing in the US on DVD, but if you look around enough, you could probably find someplace to get a fan dub.
It takes place in Europe around 1300-1500 or so, I’d say. It follows a young man named Gatsu (Guts in the American Translation [Oi]) who joins up with a mercenary group led by a guy named Griffith. They become good friends, but at the end…well, let’s just say it’s the most horrific ending to any story I’ve ever seen, and the bad guy DEFINITELY wins. Involves demons, it’s fantasy, and it’s really, really good. It’s based off of a manga which, again, you can’t really find in the US, but there are plenty of fan sites out there that offer translations.
1984, Animal farm by George Orwell.
Dinbig of Khimmur by Williamson is about the demon princey-type guy conquering most of the world. He’ll get overthrown by the end of the trilogy, but it isn’t written yet AFAIK.
The film of House of Cards by Michael Dobbs. Scheming bastard trying to become prime minister.
Harry Potter 4 (well, kind of a stand off, but worth mentioning)
Not really what you’re looking for, I know, but it’s what I could think of.
Try short story collections.
Hmmmm… not exactly what you’re looking for, but you might like it anyway…C.S. Friedman’s Coldfire Trilogy.
The 2 main characters are a (for lack of a better term) paladin who reluctantly has to team up with (for lack of a better term) vampire, because there’s the world is threatened by this, uh, evil force…well, differently evil force than the FLOABT vampire.
It gets into great moral qualms when the FLOABT paladin has to admit the FLOABT vampire is right on some issues, and vice versa. They hate each other, but begrudgingly grow to respect one another. Good, thrilling books.
Look for the short story I Am Legend by a guy named Matheson. Not a true “bad guys win” but rather a “bad guys not in a position to lose”. Sort of. One of the more original stories I’ve ever read. Very nice.
The Draka series by S.M. Stirling. Over the course of the first three books, the South African lesbian Nazis conquer the world and drive the last few Americans to Alpha Centauri by driving the world crazy with a microwave-activated insanity virus. Told almost entirely from the point of the bad guys, who are so down with their bad selves that Dahmer would think, “Man, these guys are just nutburgers.”
And believe it or not, it works.
Well, there’s the short (VERY short) story “Answer,” by Frederic Brown. The ultimate “bad guy” wins.