<snipped>
i personally don’t agree with this conclusion. are you channeling freud by chance?
It was my first post since the handshake conversation had begun. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to participate? Since I’m a few hours behind everyone else I should just keep my mouth shut?
But if NOT every VT is confirmed by handshake, then you’ve probably not helped us much. In the case where the Mod has given the Scum team a sample VT PM (as Maha is known to have done previously), then handshaking with a few, but not all VT (as well as Scum) helps Scum more than it helps Town. But it looks like this has also been discussed in the meantime and without knowing whether the Scum team was given the VT Role or whether everyone got the same verbiage makes the whole discussion moot.
Sorry I wasn’t more explicit. From Telcontar’s post #202:
Last section: 7 a’s and 8 t’s. no x’s: Agree
6l 3caps with a CRC-16 of 1EC3: I don’t understand
I, for one, don’t have a win condition section in my role PM: Agree, I guess; this is a little obtuse
I’ll add 6 Y’s to the pile: Agree
defo 6 Y’s. I get 2 of each u’s and c’s: Agree
I have 11 O s in grand total of my last two lines of my Role PM. An even Dozen if you count the last three lines: Agree
There are other quotes in that post that are about disagreements between other posters (ie Gadarene disagreeing about the number of Ys) but I was just trying to match the first handshake attempt and not the disagreements (since I had none). Also there were some other non-handshake data points that I ignored. I shouldn’t have been so cavalier with my use of the word “all”
Does that help?
I had said earlier (Post 379) that I was somewhat, but not terribly, suspicious. The more I go over it, the more it doesn’t add up. Given that there is (almost) certainly more than one PM floating about, it didn’t concern me much one way or the other whether or not anyone’s PM met some, all, or none of the conditions. But thinking some more about it, it seems very unlikely that anyone’s would match ***all ***of the conditions set.
I think it would be a rather bone-headed play for scum to make such a claim, especially after all of the discussion we’ve had on the subject, so it doesn’t immediately mark **USCDiver **as scum for me. But I have a hard time believing it’s a true statement, and I can’t figure out why a townie would lie about that, either. Call me increasingly suspicious at this point.
I also can’t figure out **Chronos **claim. He says it’s because he “inadvertently gave out enough information for Scum to deduce that I’m nonvanilla”. I didn’t deduce that from the discussion. What I got from that discussion was that either **Chronos **or special ed were lying, or maybe both, or perhaps neither, given not all of the PMs were worded the same. He didn’t “out himself” at all, in my opinion.
And I can’t see how it helps the town to have this information out now. We know that he has ‘information’, but it would be bad to tell us now, and if he should die without having a chance to reveal it that “would not particularly cripple the Town”…so what’s the point in telling us anything, other than to make himself the primary target for a Night Kill?
Well, if you’re town you’ll just have to weigh the likelihood of scum figuring out your role via brute-force, bearing in mind that should they have cover roles, they will no doubt be ruling out those names right off the bat, versus the importance of when this info gets revealed. I guess you have to decide based on how likely you think they can figure out who you are.
That being said, it’s early in the day, so I’m going to start off by voting you. Why? Because your claim was still anti-town. The only pro-town reason I can see you needing to claim is to seek protection from a doctor, which would imply your information is vital. But it’s too early to determine if your role being saved is better than someone else who may be forced to claim to avoid lynch. Town would have been better served for you to wait until near Day’s end, and then come out with your soft-claim expecting to be protected. (Granted, even then you could be scum trying to lure a doctor while a teammate watcher of yours observes who visits you.)
And based on your discussions from earlier, your anti-town move here would be enough justification for my vote in your own eyes. However, the real reason I’m voting you is there are pro-scum reasons for what you are doing, including trying to lure a doctor to you, even if it is nothing more than to nullify a Doc type from protecting an actual night kill target.
vote chronos
You exposed yourself further, without really giving town any benefit in exchange.
I should learn to check for new posts on preview…
That does help, and makes things much clearer. I agree that the word “all” was a poor choice in this case.
i kind of have to agree with hoppy.
mental note. add soft claiming to list.
because, chronos it really is anti town and based on your previously voiced viewpoint that equates to scum, right?
@Hoopy: I’m not seeing too much of a difference between Chronos’s actions and Pleonast’s actions (except that a scummy Chronos might use a soft-claim to pull a doctor away from protecting pleo based on his soft-claim). What made you decide to vote Chronos over Pleo?
To me, being a simple kinda guy, they both have basically said, “Hey guys I’m a power role. But don’t ask any questions, K?” Both positions are irritating to be sure. But I don’t know if they are scummy or not.
@Chronos: Since you have claimed a power role, why did you engage ed in a discussion involving handshakes, when it could possibly expose you?
What? Assuming he made a slip, Chronos has given away nothing more. Unconfirmed claims contain no information beyond the fact that a claim was made.
And it’s better for the town that things come up earlier in the Day, so we have time to digest it. Revealing info right before Dusk (or Dawn) gives little time to react.
And he has not asked for any protection or any other action from anybody else. He’s not even claiming because of lynch pressure. You’re projecting motivations on him for which there is no evidence.
vote Hoopy Frood
for a poorly reasoned vote.
@Peeker: You have not provided any justification for your vote on pleonast and or gadarene, and have since moved it to a lurker. Please provide justification for the pleo and or gada vote.
Based on whatever justification you provide, please provide the reasoning of why a player who is absentee is more likely to be scum than pleo and or gada, and why that reasoning is less compelling to you than someone who is lurking.
I agree with this. I had – and still have – an issue with Chronos quoting the text of the wincon, because it seemed – and still seems – that doing so would be more helpful to scum than town, but I certainly didn’t get any sense from his posts that he had given any information away about being nonvanilla, and I think it’s weird that he should say that.
If Chronos could tell us what “slip” he thought he made, that would be helpful, but since (if he’s telling the truth) he probably assumes that it’s something that would also help identify other nonvanillas, discussing it in any detail is probably too risky.
I honestly assumed he picked me and Pleo basically at random to test the voting mechanism (which it would never have occurred to me to need to do, but hey, he’s peeker) – I didn’t take it as an actual expression of suspicion.
Correct me if I’m wrong, peeker, and I’m happy to explore it further.
Because either Chronos is a power role or Chronos is scum. Those are our two choices. There is no way he’s vanilla unless he really wants to play poorly.
Pleo essentially always says he’s a power role. It’s meaningless. It’s WIFOM. If Pleo came out and said “Hey, I’m the detective everyone” than I’d probably be voting him instead. Pleo could be anything in my book. I’m ignoring his statement entirely because he said so himself that town should do so. So there’s no influence on how town should act based on what he said. Contrast that with Chronos, who has now claimed a role that has extra information that is relevant to town at some point. There is no way he’s vanilla. And there wasn’t a good reason to confirm his power-role-ness when 1) His power itself isn’t that useful right now anyway, 2) scum do miss town slips. I’ve seen it happen many times. Drawing attention to your slip when nothing can really be done about it at this point is bad.
I’ve already taken Pleo to task on the fact that his actions were anti-town, but I don’t think he necessarily exposed himself as a power role, because he essentially has said:
“Hey I’m a power role. Well, actually, I’m just kidding…Or am I?”
I think it’s a ridiculous move that adds nothing but noise, but it’s not as if he’s given anyone anything to go on here. I say if he’s town the odds are just as likely he’s vanilla as any other townies are.
I don’t see why you are having so much problem understanding the distinction I’ve drawn here, considering I’ve mentioned it before.
/snipped
I asked what you expected to gain. I presume you expected to be confirmed as Town or something but given the discussion that had taken place previously, this was looking less and less likely.
I was (and still am) concerned that we’re simply giving information to scum. If they do have access to a vanilla town PM, any further attempts at handshaking are just making it easier for them to win. We, Town, have no way of distinguishing between a valid VT handshake and a scum false-claiming handshake so we cannot consider any of those who have attempted to handshake as confirmed Town. The scum, however, don’t have this problem and so are able to identify a decent number of VTs, thus reducing the pool of players in which to find power roles. Even if every real VT successfully handshakes, we’re no better off as, most likely, all scum will have claimed VT too.
If scum don’t have the PM, there’s no problem if all remaining VTs handshake and, according to the numbers presented, we’re likely to win the game solely based on handshaking. Apart from not being much fun, I doubt Mahaloth would have left that loophole open.
I must still be missing something obvious if no-one sees the same issue.
Right. But there was no reason for him to claim. None. I hate soft claims. Hate them. His information as given is useless. His slip, if a slip, might have gone unnoticed by scum. Unlikely, but possible.
What’s there to digest? He’s claimed a power role. Yippee. Why don’t we just have all the power roles claim that their power roles right now so we can digest that fact?
So if he’s town, now the scum are likely gunning for him. They might have been anyway, but he’s now guaranteed they know who he is. The slight chance that they missed his slip is gone. Completely. Say we go to lynch a detective, and that detective claims? Well, goodbye Chronos, because no doctor in their right mind is going to protect Chronos. But say we lynched a vanilla toDay? Chronos could reveal near the end of Day that he is indeed a power role, and ask for some protection out of fear that scum likely noticed his slip. That’s a reasonable tack to take. He’s self-proclaimed not all that useful at this point, so why come out and confirm this fact?
Meh. It’s day one. Votes on day one are cheap and plentiful. His actions are the most scummy I’ve seen so far. I really don’t expect my vote to end up on him at the end of the Day, but for now, he’s my best choice.
About Chronos:
About Pleo:
I guess i’m too focused on what you said the “main reason” was, since it could be easily attributed to pleo’s actions as well. I try not to do too much of the “it’s just x being x” reasoning because it tends to let players off the hook too easily, although sometimes it can’t be helped.
I see the same issue, Guiri, and it worries me a fair amount.
On another note, would it be worthwhile at this point to discuss the possibility/likelihood of a third-party role with a wincon tied to a particular, um, precious object – oh, let’s say a ring – and the potential implications of that role (and the existence of that object) on the game mechanics?
Here’s what I see as the difference between **Chronos **and Pleonast’s claims.
Pleonast came out with “I have a townie power role” quite early in Night 0. It was basically a meaningless claim (and apparently SOP for him, though I have no independent knowledge of that fact). No evidence was given to back it up, and I don’t believe he has offered any since. It was a throwaway line, and I took it as such.
Chronos, on the other hand, makes a much more specific claim. He has a power, but seemingly not an ‘active’ one. He has ‘secret information’, but he’s not going to tell us what it is. He might reveal it later if he thinks it would be a good idea, but if he doesn’t get a chance, it seems that’s OK too.
Basically Pleonast was making a baseless claim, no more and no less. Chronos seems to be angling for protection, which he didn’t need in the first place because nobody was suspicious of him yet. I can’t find any way his reveal is helpful to the Town, but I can envision how it might be helpful to the scum.
That being said, we still have a long time until Night, and I’m not ready to cast any votes yet.
The ring was a focal point of the stories, but I can’t guess what it would mean in the game. Maybe prevents a player from being targetted, but reaveals something to Sauron?
I know maha likes potatoes to pass around, and there was another one (or more) that might also exist: the palantir.
I’m content to disregard Pleo’s claim for now based on what everybody’s saying about his past history. I agree with Hoopy in that the claim is pure noise.
Chronos’ claim does bother me, though. I didn’t notice anything that outed himself, but if he feels like he did, I’m willing to accept that he felt speaking up was necessary. What seems suspicious to me is holding on to whatever information he started the game with. Information always, always, always helps the town, right? Short of knowing exactly who the power roles are, I can’t see how risking his information would help the town, and it very well could hurt us.
On another note, I planned on keeping a very close eye on the people who predominantly discussed game mechanics on day one. Since that’s been the dominant topic for just about everybody, I guess I’ll need a new strategy 
jeebus red i voted them because they were pissing me off. fucking pleo wants to give me shit about semantics when ed was the one dicking around. and gada for semi chastising folks that might be power roles about their play style. nonya.
and crap dude we have played enough to know that i am going to be firing right out of the gate.
btw, i voted for story just because i have to.