Lord of the Rings movie trilogy question.

I know this is a somewhat dated topic, but it came up recently when I showed to my 2 sons the Lord of the Rings trilogy this weekend. They really liked it. by the way.

I mentioned to them that about the whole “plot hole” regarding the Eagles and them just flying the fellowship to Mordor. Now, I tried to explain to the boys how this is not really a plot hole and it’s actually been discussed over and over on the internet.

I have heard 2 main theories, both of which I find credible. The first says that it would have been nearly impossible to fly their because of the fact that Sauron would have seen them coming miles away and had plenty of time to prepare.

The second theory states that Gandalf did intend to use the Eagles, but had to keep the plan secret from everyone so it would not get out. He only hinted at the idea before he fell in to the chasm in the Mines of Moria (“fly you fools!”), but the Fellowship didn’t catch the clue, so they took the long way. However I still wonder if it had worked should they have used the Eagles.

Anyway, what my main point is - what was the real plan? Was it ever stated in the books the Gandalf wanted to fly there? Did Peter Jackson and the movie writers ever answer this question? Or was this simply meant to be discussed ad nauseum afterwards by movie fans and internet trolls?

Please give any info you have and be as detailed as possible. Nerd out or vent, whatever. Thanks.

Most likely it was an oversight and not in the direction Tolkien wanted to take his narrative.

On a more contextual note, has Tolkien ever commented on it? In History of Middle Earth series or something like that?

Even in the story, it was repeated a couple times that stealth was the goal. Boldness was suicidal since Mordor had all the might it needed to repel the eagles and any other swift advance on Mt Doom. Gandalf was convinced that sneaking in was the scenario with the highest chance of success.

As in, “If we do that there’s no story whatsoever.”

Epic deeds are necessarily very hard.

“One does not simply fly into Mordor?”

I have never seen it.

A part of me thinks that if anyone had the audacity to ask that question of Tolkien, they’d have been roundly ignored. Even his fellow Inklings, who strike me as a fairly sharp group and seem likely to have asked this kind of question.

How Lord of the Rings Should Have Ended.

This is a question that has been endlessly asked ever since the novel’s first publication. One theory I’ve seen bandied about (and I think it’s one based on Tolkien’s own opinions) is that the Eagles are the direct servants of Manwë, and only intervene under divine orders; they are not merely a FedEx service who willingly serve every whim of mankind. In other words, the Eagles couldn’t fly The Ring to Mordor simply because they simply weren’t available, and the people of Middle Earth were in no position to request their assistance.

OP, your second point is a joke - “Fly, you fools” meant “Run away, don’t stick around and watch me die.” It was not a bit of clever wordplay by Tolkein.

The simplest explanation is that the Eagles were never at Gandalf’s beck and call. They freely chose to help him in the Hobbit, and freely chose again to help him in LOTR.

The simplest answer would be: Sauron is smart and paranoid enough to have thought someone might try an Eagle-mounted end run on him. And, in fact, he mounted his Nazgûl on flying critters. So he’d surely have been ready for such an obvious tactic - if we assume he’s at least as intelligent as a random Internet pundit.

Tolkien’s answer probably would have been: the Eagles were servants of Manwë in Middle-Earth, and the Valar and Maiar had withdrawn from Middle-Earth. This was a problem for Men (and Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, etc.) to solve. Gandalf himself had operated by inspiring folks to do things, and supporting them in those efforts; he didn’t get directly involved until Saruman had turned. So, the Eagles were okay with picking up random Hobbits after their deed had been done, but weren’t on call as a transport service. (Note: somewhat contradicted by the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit.)

Also, there’s the problem that the Eagles would probably be just as susceptible to the One Ring as anyone else… and Frodo is really just a mouthful to them. Take the Eagle Express to Mount Doom and you might end up with Evil Overlord Gwaihir, instead.

That was Gandalf saying “Don’t stand there gaping at me falling to my doom, like a bunch of idiots – RUN AWAY! You’re getting shot at and you’ll be dead, too! (morons!)”

Also, Gandalf was the only one who could contact the Eagles, anyway.

I think this is the real reason. Gandalf didn’t dare touch the ring. Elrond wouldn’t dare. Galadrial wouldn’t dare. The Eagles, one of the mightiest races in Middle Earth, would have been in at least as much trouble. The ring could only be entrusted to the smallest, weakest, least significant of creatures. Thus Tolkien’s main thesis: strength in the little guy.

(That, and Don Henley had not yet joined them so they really weren’t quite ready for prime time.)

Well, the Eagles are no bodies pets. Would they done it? Ok, they could have been talked into it, I am sure. But then, you apparently cant just drop the Ring in you have to land go into a tunnel and drop it.

Then there’s the Will and Eye of Sauron, which would have seen them coming, sent out Nazgul, and 100000 orc archers waiting. Even if the Eagles could have fought thru the full force of the Will.

OK, the eagles have got there anyway. Umm, so, the Ring would have taken the bearer over, so he wouldnt have wanted to drop it. Remember, even Gandalf wouldnt dare to put the Ring on.

Thanks for all the info guys and thank you also for not just rolling your eyes and saying “Oh God, this again? We’ve been over this again and again!!!”
Also, thanks for the info on the “Fly you fools” comment. Incidentally, when my kids asked me what he meant when he said that, I did tell them he meant to just run and get out of there fast. The idea that is was a clever hint by Gandalf to use the Eagles was another internet users idea and interpretation. It was even discussed in a Youtube video.

Thanks again.

At what point, though, did they switch from scary horses to even scarier flying monsters? If they’d had the ability to fly all along, then the pursuit to Weathertop and the race to the Ford of Bruinen would have ended very differently.

There’s no way to know how long Sauron kept the flying monsters in reserve, but it sure seems like they were a late addition to his arsenal of horror.

This was always my preferred explanation for it.

I don’t like the “servants of Manwe only working on divine orders” (even though this might well have been what Tolkien had in mind), at least as a movie watcher, since it requires too much backstory that isn’t on the screen, and it also makes one wonder why the gods/eagles would be willing to help the hobbits escape after disposing of the Ring but not bother beforehand. Sort of a very literal “God helps those who help themselves” bit.

Wasn’t there also a ‘you guys made this problem (failing to destroy the One Ring when they had a chance), you guys need to solve this yourselves’ attitude to not using the eagles?

With the elves checking out of Middle Earth it was up to the world of men (and hobbits) to step up and prove they were worthy successors.

Tolkien did address the whole “why didn’t the eagles carry the ring to Mordor” question more than once, in later writings. Basically it boiled down to “well, it wouldn’t have been much of a story otherwise”.

I’m not aware of any writings of his where he addresses this specific issue from the viewpoint inside the world of Middle Earth. Though he did write a few things later on about the eagles and their point of view as it came to carrying Bilbo and Gandalf and the dwarves years earlier during the events in The Hobbit. There, he noted that the eagles were flying Bilbo and company around because they owed Gandalf some goodwill for past services rendered to them. Even so, they carried the company only a short distance, and refused to take them anyplace near where men lived, as they disliked being shot at by the men with their bows and arrows.

So I can imagine they’d be less inclined to carry the Fellowship into Mordor, where they’d be facing the slings and arrows of Orcs, Men of the East, Nazgul on Fell Flying Beasts, etc.

Eru and the Valar were just about the worst, most lackadaisical deities one could imagine. For the Eagles to say, “Hell with it; we don’t feel like defending the world from being conquered by a rampaging demon” is par for the course for Middle-Earth divinity.

Already answered, but I just wanted to give this definition from Oxford Living Dictionaries:

4.3 archaic Run away; flee.

4.4 archaic with [object] Escape from in haste; flee from.

Remember that Tolkien liked archaic prose. :wink:

They were first seen when Legolas shot one down when they were on the Anduin. They didn’t really reveal themselves until the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The Nazgul apparently weren’t given them until they limped back to Mordor after having lost their horses at the Bruinen ford.

They would have been unknown at the time of the Council of Elrond, so they wouldn’t have been a reason for members of the Council not to propose using the Eagles.

As has been stated, the real reason for not using them is that if they did the story would be 100 pages long instead of three volumes.

I think the best in-Universe reason for not asking the Eagles is that they were sentient beings and could be corrupted by the ring just like Gandalf or Aragorn. They couldn’t carry it to Mordor any more than any being who wasn’t a hobbit could. (And with even if a hobbit rode an Eagle, the ring would be close enough to influence it.)

No, but you can just walk into it. Totally.

Question: Do the Nazgul’s flying mounts have a name?

As for why the Nazgul used plain horses in book one, it’s probably because they were on more of a “stealth” mission while seeking The Ring in the area around Hobbiton & Bree. They didn’t want to draw attention to themselves, and while they looked really creepy, they weren’t so far out of the norm that anyone paid them close attention. By the time of book two, Sauron wanted the psychological warfare of monstrous fell beasts flying circles over Rohan and Minas Tirith and scaring the bejeezus out of everyone. At least, that’s my take on them.

Alternative explanation courtesy of Oglaf (mildy non-kid-friendly - swearing, violence - but not 2-click-worthy NSFW)