Yeah, it’s just not said so they would be confused, I think.
Is it the rough equivalent of “Good job,” “Way to go” or “Well done,” then?
I had a first cousin who was close to 20 years older than my siblings. She would mockingly get upset when we called her Aunt. She just seemed more like an aunt!
It’s funny how these things work. In Jewish culture, the phrase that literally translates as “good luck” - “mazal tov” - actually means “congratulations”. The implication, it seems, is that you were lucky (or fortunate) that something good happened to you, which is a slightly cynical and sarcastic way of looking at things.
The Hebrew phrase for “good luck”, BTW, is “be’hatzlacha” - “with success”, or “may you succeed”, which is basically neutral as to the cause of the success.
Yes and no.
When a boss is leaving for the day, would an admin say any of those to the boss? Bosses don’t usually say them to subordinates, either, but if you think about it, there are many times you can’t use these expressions, but Japanese would be saying otsukare sama.
It can mean those, but more often than not, we just use completely different expressions in English. Mostly likely, when someone is leaving we would say, “Have a good evening ( or weekend)” which Japanese don’t say.
Actually, some Japanese have started to use 良い週末を yoishumatsu wo, which is the literal translation of “Have a good weekend.”
I just texted a friend.
Our exchange:
me: I just finished classes
friend: おつかれさまでした。
(otsukara sama deshita)
It’s more of a set expression and the equivalent in English woud be
me: I just finished classes
friend: good (or whatever, I don’t really text much in English)
That’s interesting.
Thanks, TokyoBayer! Interesting stuff.
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Most of the OP and following responses seemed to be about single words in non-English languages which had no single word equivalents in English. Most of the responses stuck to that, though things have loosened up to be about single words and their very-few-word equivalents.
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There are official anthropological trees for various cultures for which the terms of relationships are defined – regardless of whether the average person in Culture X strictly adheres to those conventions. Anecdotally, I have observed that the Japanese did not seem to distinguish between a sister and a sister-in-law; once a woman moved out of her own family and into that of her husband, she was considered a member of that new family (and not a member of her previous family). I have been told that Hawaiians throw around the terms ‘bro’ and ‘sis’ and ‘cousin’ with little regard to actual genetic ties (but this was an informal observation from a person whose background was not in anthropology). The point being that genealogical societies dealing with Western European and North American cultures do have a set terminology with specific boundaries and there are remarkably different (i.e. more specific) terms with set definitions in Chinese (as well as Japanese) cultures and those terms define the gender and age-relationship of the speaker and the kin. There is a specific Chinese term for older brother and a specific term for younger brother, two more terms for sisters, et cetera. When each term is translated to English it becomes an informative phrase rather than a single equivalent word – which was the OP’s criteria and the responder’s point.
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My Japanese teacher at the University would finish class by dismissing us and saying Otsukare sama deshta! Which she explained was roughly ‘Good Job; I realize you worked very hard.’ or ‘I appreciate that you put in a good effort.’
Sama is a term of highest respect toward someone; deshta indicates you are speaking about something in the past. You were clearly a hard worker who deserves the highest respect for your efforts.
Years later when I got to Japan and was teaching English as a Foreign Language the office manager and the senior teachers would use that phrase at the end of the evening and I learned by context and nuance that it seemed to be a phrase for use by someone in a position of authority to evaluate others. I could use it when leaving a sit-down restaurant and the intended audience seemed to think that was a better compliment than “Ogochiso Sama” [roughly, ‘that was delicious’ – but let’s not get sidetracked on another nuance…], but it wasn’t quite appropriate to use at a fast-food place (or even a ramen shop). After a few months, I would just say “Otsukare…” after helping to close for the night and the other staff members were delighted that I had learned to boil it down to that single word (but, quite honestly, I was merely imitating what I had seen some of the others do on previous nights). The senior teachers who were Japanese used the phrase when we were done for the day and it was even appropriate for us foreigners who were teaching Conversational English to do that, but the junior teachers didn’t say it. I ended up dating one of the junior teachers and asked why she didn’t say it when we were closing up the school for the night and she simply said, “It’s not my place to say that.”
- In the spirit of the original post, I give you a term in Russian that I learned in Junior College: Nichevo.
The term is literally translated to ‘nothing.’
When I first learned it, I got the sense that it was similar to the Spanish response to Gracias: De Nada (for nothing; it was nothing; don’t mention it; forget about it.)
The usage is typically a dismissive grunt or cough followed by the term.
The best translation of the usage takes a paragraph: dismissive sound and/or gesture [That subject] is so insignificant that it’s not worth mentioning. In fact, simply referring to that subject as ‘nothing’ gives it ten thousand times more importance than it deserves. Stop thinking about it.
And it’s amazingly versatile!
Coworker: Hey, don’t I owe you for lunch yesterday?
Me: Eh…nichevo (Don’t worry about it; it wasn’t a big deal).
Interviewer: What do you think about Putin putting his picture in every elevator car in Moscow?
Apartment Tenant: [Waving hand and shaking her head.} Mmm…nichevo (There’s nothing we can do about it; best not to discuss it; let’s not try to think about it. I refuse to offer my opinion.)
–G!
You may think you understand
What you thought I said.
But
What you don’t understand
Is that What I said
Is not what I meant.
I was chatting to a Japanese woman in a hotel bar a few years ago. She kept mentioning that her ‘second grandparents’ were English. I still have no idea if she meant her great grandparents or she’d been adopted and was referring to her 2nd family. Any body here recognise that idiom?
Han/hann/haan 한 (Korean)
I learned about hann because of a Kpop song by (G)-Idle, 한(一) / Hann (Alone).* Which is a beautifully, angry song about forgetting someone.
## Definitions and characteristics[edit]
Han is derived from the Chinese character 恨, which means resentment, hatred, or regret.
Definitions and characteristics of han are highly subjective. According to the Translation Journal, “Han is frequently translated as sorrow, spite, rancor, regret, resentment or grief, among many other attempts to explain a concept that has no English equivalent.”[1] The novelist Pak Kyongni describes han as both sadness and hope.[2] The film director Im Kwon-Taek, many of whose films deal with han, says that Koreans have different interpretations of han.[3]
Joshua D. Pilzer defines han: “A complex emotional cluster often translated as ‘resentful sorrow.’ Thought by many to be essentially Korean, and by many others to be the product of modern, post-colonial efforts to create a ‘Korean’ essence.”[4]
Enryo 遠慮/えんりょ(Japanese)
I’ve always practiced enryo, defined as diffidence; restraint; reserve; discretion; tact; thoughtfulness*, but it’s much more than that. IMO, it’s the essence of being Japanese. Humble and restrained on the outside, while silently prideful inside.
*遠慮, えんりょ, enryo - Nihongo Master
My Mom would always tell those offering something to me that they have to ask twice, because I’ll always refuse the first time and she didn’t know where I picked it up from.** Native Japanese would laugh and nod approvingly, saying I’m a real Japanese.
**Thinking about it, from 6 mos to 4 y.o. we lived in Japan and had a maid. I’m told a common practice for military families in the 60’s. My earliest memories are her carrying me on her back all day. So probably where I subconsciously learned her mannerisms.
Jaiyou - 加油 (Chinese)
Jiayou or Gayau (Chinese: 加油) is a ubiquitous Chinese expression of encouragement and support. The phrase is commonly used at sporting events and competitions by groups as a rallying cheer and can also be used at a personal level as a motivating phrase to the partner in the conversation.
The phrase is often described as “the hardest to translate well” to English, but has the literal meaning of to “add oil” in Hong Kong English.[1] It is commonly believed that the term originated from first being used at the Macau Grand Prix during the 1960s, where it was a euphemistic cheer by supporters urging the driver to “put more oil into it/step on the gas” during the racing competition to encourage them to speed/accelerate faster.[2]
Despite having watched numerous Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) movies over the past 40 years, it was only a few years ago that I consciously heard jiayou used in a Chinese reality show, Produce 101 - China. Produce 101 - China was the Chinese version of a Korean competition show to create a female pop group from 101 contestants. The contestants constantly yelled jaiyou to each other, even through tears.
No. Perhaps in the distant past when farm girls were married off to farm boys in another village, but this isn’t part of modern Japan.
Many Japanese do address older brothers and sisters and お兄さん“Older Brother” or お姉さん “Older Sister, rather than their name and people who marry into a family will adopt that, but husbands will also use that term for their wives’ relatives, and this isn’t an indication that a woman is no longer a member of her family of origin.
There definitely is a term for a mother-in-law 姑 ”shuutome”, which is the most commonly used word for this relationship. As the wife of the oldest son traditionally moved in with the family, the friction between MIL and DIL is well known in Japan. Likewise, the daughter-in-law is called お嫁さん, “daughter-in-law”.
I was married to a Japanese woman who had a sister, and attended various family activities on both her mother’s and father’s sides and this simply wasn’t the case. And of course various other interactions with countless friends, neighbors and acquaintances over 40 years as well as reading books, watching shows and such, and I can’t stress how wrong this is.
I posted a bit about this phase above, but it definitely can be used for superiors as well. If you watch Japanese TV dramas, you can see it’s commonplace for people to say this to their superiors as the superiors leave for the night.
There may have been something about that particular workplace, but that’s not at all typical.
In fact, it’s curious. What would junior teacher say instead of otsukare sama if a senior teacher were leaving the school first?
Even a quick google (link in Japanese) search shows hit after hit about how to properly use otsukaresama.
(“Otsukaresama” is a convenient expression which can be used to people above you).
It almost seems as if you are sort of describing ご苦労様です “gokurosama” which is definitely not something you say to your social superiors, but it doesn’t fit the situation, so I’m not sure what you mean.
my bolding
Many Japanese words take an honorific before the word, so it’s “honorable mizu”, “honorable father”, “honorable older sister”, “honorable work”, etc., but other words never take “honorable” before. They don’t say “honorable pencil” or “honorable train”, for example.
Some words take the honorific “go”, such as “gohan” (rice) and others take the honorific “o” such as “omizu” (water) but they are never used together.
ごちそうさまでした “gochisoma deshita” already has the honorific “go” and would never take another honorific “o” in front of the first, so it’s wrong Japanese to say “o-go-chiso sama” as that would be “honorable, honorable feast”
I’m a little confused about who the “intended audience” was. The staff? Perhaps they were appreciating the funny gaijin joke you were telling them, as a Japanese would not tell the staff “otsukaresama” after a meal.
No, but it’s probably because she didn’t know how to say “great grandparents”. Japanese say ojiisan for grandfather and hiiojiisan for great-grandfather, adding hii-. That doesn’t translate into “great” and it’s most likely she simply wouldn’t have known the English term.
The technical definition is a relative that shares a node on a family tree with your grandparents or further back allowing for generational levels. So if your great great grandparents is Mabel’s great great great grandparents you are third cousins (closest branch is 3 nodes back with grandparents being the first) once removed (they are one generation lower than you in the tree). You children are Mabel’s fourth cousins and Mabel’s children are your third cousin twice removed.
But I think a usage in some cultures is a cousin but specifically one you have a close relationship with like a sibling.
In Chinese, you need to specify if the cousin is from the paternal side or the maternal side and if the cousin is male or female and older or younger than the person. There isn’t a general term which corresponds to “cousin.”
Here is one rundown of the terms involved:
My wife says that they just don’t think in terms of total number of cousins just isn’t done.
Japanese generally specifies if a brother or sister is older or younger than the speaker so that information is helpful when translating from English into Japanese, but not absolutely necessary. Chinese is much moreso.
There’s a difference between meaning and usage. An English speaker may not ever use the word “cousin” to mean their first cousin twice removed ( I wouldn’t- I call them " my cousin’s grandchildren). They may not know who their first cousins twice removed are - but if asked “what sort of relative is your first cousin’s grandchild to you?” few, if any, would say they aren’t relatives at all and approximately none would give a different word to that relationship.
There are loads of words that can’t be exactly translated by a single word from one language to another - In English I can refer to my “brothers” , and you know they are all male or my “sisters” and you know they are all female or my “siblings” which implies that there is at least one of each but in some languages, the word for “brothers” is also used for a mixed group so there isn’t any word that means exactly what “brothers” means in English.
This is the case in Japanese. They use 兄弟 kyodai to mean “brothers and sisters” although the literal meaning is “brothers.” They will often then specify 男の兄弟 “male brothers” which is what “brothers” means in English.
I am both amused and bemused by the term “boyfriend-girlfriend” for, well, the “boyfriend-girlfriend” relationship. In Filipino, we’ve got “magsiyota” for this. “Siyota” is the gender-neutral term for boyfriend or girlfriend, and the “mag-” prefix denotes a reciprocal relationship. Bonus: since the term is gender-neutral it can also be used for gay or lesbian relationships.
Welsh has “cariad” as their gender-neutral term. You use it for the affection itself (“love,”) and the person you feel it toward (“dear, darling”) as well as the person you feel it about (“boyfriend, girlfriend”). As a bonus, it doesn’t have the youth component that English “boyfriend” and “girlfriend” do.
That’s beautiful. Pleasing to pronounce and to hear and oddly appropriate for what it represents.