LotR again - Why didn't Ulmo discover the Elves first?

Cafe Society
1

Sorry, guys. I’m on a Lost Tales and Silmarillion kick at the moment.

So when the Elder Children of Ilúvatar awoke in Cuiviénen, we are told that Oromë, on one of his hunts, was the first of the Valar to discover them. We are then told, of course, that Melkor was really the first to discover them, and set forth immediately to corrupt, frighten, and enslave them, leading to some being captured and tortured, and eventually turned into Orcs.

So, given that Cuiviénen was located on the shores of the Sea of Helcar, and that “many waters flowed thither from heights in the east”, and even that the first sound that the Elves heard when they awoke was the sound of water flowing over stone, why wasn’t Ulmo the first of the Valar to be aware of them?

After all, it was said that wherever water flowed, Ulmo had awareness - from the oceans to the rivers, to small springs, and even in the deep waters flowing under the realm of Melkor.

So what gives? Did Eru hide their existence from him (and for that matter, the delving of Utumno, of which the Valar were not aware), so that Oromë could be the first to find them? Why? Or did he drop the ball? OR, was he, in fact, the first to find the Elves after all, and simply said nothing, because he always was in favor of the Elves being free, never coming to Valinor?

PS: While we’re on the subject of Arda’s theology, I wonder if the Elves who were corrupted and became Orcs are still essentially immortal, being reborn into their children…

2

Could even Ulmo save this thread from sinking like a stone?

3

There’s circumstantial evidence that a few of the orcs in LotR were survivors from an earlier Age. Of course, death by misadventure is common enough among orcs that I imagine it wasn’t relevant too often.

4

orome can easily assume a form close to human. and he’s on horseback --useful for taking the three tribal leaders on a tour to valinor. all ulmo can do is drown them.

5

Hardly. He transported the entire race to Valinor on a broken-off island. Besides, I’m not asking who was the better choice to transport the Elves. I’m asking why he didn’t discover them first.

6

sorry, i was going with the premise that ulmo and likely manwe already knew of them (and also melkor.) i remember the narration saying orome “discovered” the elves but he wasn’t necessarily the first. valar don’t always disclose everything to each other, best examplified by mandos who can tell the future. you’re right about the island, by the way. but i suppose orome makes for a better messenger-valar than ulmo. ulmo is too independent and powerful (lives alone, nevers stays in one place for long.)

7

with your permission, can we lump all tolkien questions here? i have a number of questions myself.

one of them concerns dragons. are they perverted elves or are they maiar? or, were they created by melkor during ainulindalie or somewhat later? think of yavannah and the ents, aule and the dwarves.

8

Well, I sort of covered that in the OP. It very well could have been that Ulmo did know of them first, but 1) he was always a bit stand-offish anyway, and 2) he, afterward, lobbied pretty steadfastly that the Elves should remain free to walk Middle Earth as they would. I don’t think it’d be a stretch to consider the possibility that he knew what was going on, and didn’t want to tell the other Valar, thinking they’d just interfere (which, of course, they did. Immediately.)

9

Sure. Suits me. I really have no idea. I doubt they’d be perverted Elves, since their physical forms are so incredibly different. I suppose they could be Maiar, but that leaves me a bit cold. The first thing any Tolkien fan thinks of whenever there’s a critter of poorly-understood origin in the Mythos is “It must be a Maia!”

I suppose they were something that Malkor perverted, because he did not have the power to create, only to change and corrupt. Beats me what they were, though. Big tropical lizards? :smiley:

10

Why would anyone think they’re perverted elves? Morgoth was breeding his own versions of everything, not just humanoids. Dragons are presumably bred from some smaller variety of reptilian, though it’s never explicitly stated what, and presumably the fell-beasts the Nazgul ride in the Third Age are descended from the same stock.

The more controversial question concerns not the bodies of dragons, but their spirits. I personally contend that dragons, like the great eagles and the wargs, are simply highly intelligent animals, but there’s also a school of thought that all three of those classes of beings are bodies worn by Maia spirits. The main piece of evidence for this, as I understand it, is a line referring to a dragon (I think it’s in the tale of Turin) where it speaks of “the evil spirit within him”, but I take that as just being a reference to the dragon’s own animus, not a separate being.

11

aside from the maia theory, the other default explanation would be they were created during ainulindalie ("…some of them are even older than sauron") that goes perhaps for other non-human sentients like nahar, huan, thorondor, and shadowfax.

12

the only genealogy of orcs i remember is bolg-son-of-azog, who might have been as old as thorin or dain. no indication of immortality there. but there’s no reason why goblins can’t be immortal if they started from immortal material. yavannah, with leave from manwe, created (or invoked from eru) immortal ents.