LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point?

[Kobal2]

@What_Exit

What was Galadriel supposed to do? March out with the remains of the Fellowship when her power was concentrated and localized in Lothlórien?

Sidetracking here, but this gets my goat as well. Her power was not concentrated in Lorièn, nor was Elrond’s localized around Rivendell. Both fairytale safe havens were products of their rings. Move the ring, move Lorièn.

And frankly, who cares about a single manor-house in the middle of nowhere, or whether your stupid puny forest (which pales in comparison to Mirkwood or the Ent forest, both 100% natural ; and which you can all leave whenever the hell you want to sail back to Heaven anyway) may or may not be attacked in the future ? When you own 2 of the 3 most powerful artifacts in the world besides the One Ring (Vilya and Nenya, respectively) ? When entire kingdoms spanning over thousands of miles and housing hundred thousand people are being raided, razed, burned, plundered, trampled and salted RIGHT NOW, a mere weeks’ walk away ? Oh, right. They’re just men and hobbits, they don’t really count.

Fuck the elves. Fuck them up their perfect, glorious, noble, hairless and bleached arseholes sideways, with Cayenne pepper. Sorry, pepperìll

@What Exit?

Why this need to slam Tolkien?

Let me reiterate : I don’t begrudge him in any way. I’m not slamming him - again, he was a product of his time, and I perfectly understand both why he wrote his books this way, and how come his views of women or sex were so awkward by modern standards.
For what it’s worth, I absolutely love the books, too.
What I do object to though, in a mild but exaggerated-for-TV way, is* modern readers *condoning and defending his Victorian crap. Or fawning over Elves. Did I mention FUCK THE ELVES yet ?

You can also read the Silmarillion and find several strong women.

I’ll readily confess I never could get past the starting “Biblical” part. I’ve been told many times that I should grin and bear it, the good bits come later. Og knows I tried. To no avail.

@DrDeth

Note that all but one of those historical examples are only important becuase they married an important MAN.

Note how you ignored my other historical examples of famous women who had nothing to do with their husbands ;).
I mean come on, how can anyone trump Freydis, *ever *? Preggers woman, left behind by her “proud warrior brethren” running away from the foe, faces an enemy warband alone and routs them all by slapping her sword on her bared breasts and berating their manhood ? That’s an Ellen Degeneres wet dream, right there.

[Lightray]

@Fish

Personally, I believe the omission of women says a great deal about Tolkien himself.

You keep saying this as though we’re to take it as some scathing disparagement of the man.

What it says about Tolkien is that his formative experiences were in WWI – no women around – and that he was writing the book for his buddies at Oxford – no women around.

Yes, it is a flaw in him as a writer that he didn’t notice his assumptions about the role of women in his work and correct it. But, really, in his world, there were no women around. His wife stayed home and had kids. It is just that he never noticed he’d created a world where it made more sense for there to be women around than in his own society, and he neglected to correct for that.

@Kobal2

And frankly, who cares about a single manor-house in the middle of nowhere, or whether your stupid puny forest (which pales in comparison to Mirkwood or the Ent forest, both 100% natural ; and which you can all leave whenever the hell you want to sail back to Heaven anyway) may or may not be attacked in the future ? When you own 2 of the 3 most powerful artifacts in the world besides the One Ring (Vilya and Nenya, respectively) ? When entire kingdoms spanning over thousands of miles and housing hundred thousand people are being raided, razed, burned, plundered, trampled and salted RIGHT NOW, a mere weeks’ walk away ? Oh, right. They’re just men and hobbits, they don’t really count.

Well, yeah, the elves were isolationists who wanted to make it so things never changed. They were sitting around singing fa-la-la-lolly songs because that was their tragic flaw. It was why they were, you know, losing.

IMO, they’re more annoying because they’re so arrogant despite this. Had the ring not been plopped in their laps, they’d probably have dithered on until Sauron came knocking at their doors to invite them to the new neighborhood steering committee meeting.

And Freydis is a bit too much of a ballbreaking bitch for LotR. Seriously, even her brother condemns her. Way cool name, though.

[DSYoungEsq]

@Fish

But if she is defending Lothlorien from the Big Bad, this is surely her crowning moment. Tolkien relegates her to a “where are they now?” section of the book, rather than include a woman in the core of the narrative. In exchange we get — well, I already listed a paragraph of dispensible plot points which we get instead.

He relegates a whole LOT of stuff to the Appendices. For example, we don’t hear about Dale and Erebor until we get to the Appendices. Does this mean he undervalues the contribution of Dwarves and Elves? We don’t see until the Appendices a whole lot of stuff done outside the happenings to which the Hobbits were privvy. Did you never cotton on to the fact that the ONLY parts of the whole thing that we see are those parts which either had Hobbits present, or which were central to understanding what happened at the parts where the hobbits WERE present? :smack:

We see plenty of women in the story. We see a Queen in Lothlorien, and she appears to be stronger than her husband, more regal, more weighty as it were. We see the daughter of the aged king of the Rohirrim, who is desperately attempting to keep her father from his dotage while avoiding the clutches of Grima Wormtongue. We see Elrond’s daughter, who is in love with, and loved by the main non-hobbit character in the book. We see petty women a plenty: Lobelia, Rosie, Famer Maggot’s wife in the Shire, Iorweth in Minas Tirith (almost all other women having been sent away, as would really happen in such times, facing such peril), etc. Where else SHOULD a woman have been involved, given the universe in which the story takes place and the fact of where and what the story chronicles? Not COULD, but SHOULD.

Yes, more women characters could have been introduced. So what? The title of the OP is “What’s the book’s weakest point?” Pointing to the fact that the atmosphere of the book could have been different is hardly pointing out a “weakest point.” I mean, I could just as easily say that the lack of more elves, or dwarves makes the book’s atmosphere less enjoyable for me; I expected more like The Hobbit. But does that make it “weak?” Is it a FLAW that there are not more women?

This is the reason that your premise is being attacked, Fish. If you say, “I would have preferred to read about more women characters,” no one will attack you; many of use would tend to agree. But if you say, “the books are flawed because they don’t contain more female characters,” then I think there are justifiable issues that people can have with such a statement. This presumes that there was a NEED to have more women, and I don’t think you’ve justified such a need exists. Perhaps because you aren’t asserting that this is a flaw, merely something about the atmosphere of the book that makes it less enjoyable to you.

[DSYoungEsq]

Kobal2, it’s kind of hard to take you seriously when you slam the author for his supposedly mysoginistic viewpoint if you aren’t going to read the parts of his works where women take a much grander role. Kinda like spouting off without having much ammunition, ya know?

Oh, and I don’t see anyone defending the elves. The elves were missing something essential that humankind had, which is why the elves end up sailing off to “heaven” to sing and play all day, and humans end up taking over dominion of the world. In other words, the first theme of Iluvatar (the Elves) was only a first effort. The second theme (humans), was a second effort, at realization that the first theme wasn’t good enough, a second attempt had to be made. And are we really any better? Do we worry our butts off about Orangutans, or Gorillas, or Chimpanzees? Really? Enough to make sure they don’t get wiped out? Think about it from an Elvish viewpoint: given that any individual man lasts about as long as it takes us to compose a song, why should we care what happens to them? The seem to bread like fricken rabbits, after all; more likely than not they’ll survive anything that nasty old Sauron guy has up his sleeve. And did you hear that wonderful poem that Anduilas composed a couple 144-year cycles ago? Just lovely it was …

[Stealth_Potato]

@Fish

Yes … most women had few duties other than giving birth. And providing a freakin’ heir to the throne. And yet Denethor has two big, burly, manly sons who are unmarried and marching off to war. Surely Tolkien knew as well as anyone what happens to kings whose lines are ending without an heir: Edward the Confessor, Elizabeth I, Richard II, Henry VIII — they get desperate. Marriages are arranged when the heirs are barely teens. At least Theoden had an heir lined up, until he was killed — but only one heir. Evidently Theoden only ever had one son, then quit; and neither he nor Denethor appeared to have brothers.

That’s nothing! Consider the case of Eärnur, the last king of Gondor until the coming of Elessar: he did not yet have any heirs, and yet he accepted a challenge of single combat from the freaking Lord of the Nazgûl himself, for which purpose he rode off to Minas Morgul, and was (some say predictably) never seen again. I’d love to have heard his reasoning for that little act of derring-do. It probably went something like this:

"Let’s see: I am the sole ruler of a noble but waning people whose continued glory and vitality entirely depends on the survival of the bloodline of its kings; I am young and have no heirs; I have been challenged to single combat by the chief servant of a long-overthrown Dark Lord whose most deadly weapons had always been treachery and deceit; and the grounds for said battle are to be in the heart of his mighty fortress, surrounded by his walls and his legions of foul and evil minions.

"…Therefore, the most sensible course of action is to ride almost alone into the heart of my black-hearted foe’s realm, trusting in his honor to discharge our duel with propriety and rectitude, and in the probity of his merciless and savage servants to not summarily swarm and disembowel me in the completely plausible circumstance of my victory in single combat against an immortal superbeing protected by prophecy and the accumulated might of one of the Rings of Power.

“Yep, I’m sure I’ll be back with plenty of time to find a wife and sire lots of heirs to ensure the future survival of my kingdom!”

Hey, sounds like a winning game plan to me. :dubious:

You’d think that at some point his faithful Steward Mardil would have simply contrived to have the [del]recklessly stupid[/del] selflessly brave King Eärnur locked in a chamber with a dozen fertile Númenórean women for the good of the kingdom before allowing him to embark on his [del]recklessly stupid[/del] [del]completely suicidal[/del] [del]slightly rash[/del] mightily courageous endeavor. Or hey, maybe Mardil was a shrewder man than history gives him credit for, and, based on the [del]fucking retarded[/del] rather bold inclinations of the latest monarch, decided that mayhap the royal gene pool could use a little chlorine.
EDIT: Oh, and happy 2009, everybody!

[jackdavinci]

I’m not able to really put into words exactly what made it weak for me other than that I really enjoyed the Hobbit, and was looking forward to the LOTR but was unable to get into it at all. I did enjoy the movies though, so I’m guessing it had more to do with the writing than the story.

[Alessan]

About women…

How many women are there in Beowulf? How important are they in Gawain and the Green Knight? In the Icelandic sagas? Because those were Professor Tolkien’s filed of reference, and what he was trying to recreate. Tolkien’s writing was not so much a product of his time as a product of the 9th Century A.D.

[Malacandra]

There’s durn few women in Treasure Island, either. Damn Stevenson and his misogyny!

[PharmBoy]

@Lightray

Time and again, when there is opportunity to have a woman as even a walk-on, they are not present. Were there no important women in Rivendell to sit in on the council? In Lothlórien, with Galadriel’s example, there were no significant elven women in her court? In Minas Tirith, with its traditions of ruling queens? Heck, why didn’t Butterbur have a wife in Bree? Ridiculous.

Call it is weakness if you want, but Tolkien was writing in a certain style (Celtic folklore) and there are not many women as heroes in these tales. Is it right? Well, no, but today’s standards it’s not. But if your goal is to write in a certain historical style then, you’re bound by its tenets. Having women shown as equals with men in these tales would be as improper as depicting them eating pepperoni pizza.

[Alessan]

@PharmBoy

(Celtic folklore)

Anglo-Germanic folklore, actually. But yeah.

[Lightray]

Tolkien may have intended to write a world where the society was such that women were neither seen nor heard… but he did not end up there. He ended up with a world where there are several powerful women of consequence. Yes, they were exceptional women – but having established that there are these exceptional women in his world, Tolkien created an expectation that these women would somehow be relevant to his story. Else, why are they exceptional? That is the criticism here. (and really, for me, more of a quibble.)

But just because there are exceptional women does not mean that there should be no other women. The hobbits literally traveled to Mordor and back, and took note of only a handful of women. Even in wartime, in places that may or may not have been evacuated*, there should be some women around.

Im’ not saying they should be EQUALS with the men.. What I’m saying is that they should be there. And don’t use that “wasn’t in the sagas/folklore/legends” excuse. There are sisters and wives and daughters all throughout them.

• we know at least some women and children are in Minis Tirith, because we meet one of each. and Meduseld wasn’t evacuated until everyone trouped off to Helm’s Deep.

[Kobal2]

@DSYoungEsq

Kobal2, it’s kind of hard to take you seriously when you slam the author for his supposedly mysoginistic viewpoint if you aren’t going to read the parts of his works where women take a much grander role. Kinda like spouting off without having much ammunition, ya know?

Not really, no - this is a discussion about the LOTR and its flaws, not a Tolkien trial. And, again, not slamming him as a writer, nor as a person.

Oh, and I don’t see anyone defending the elves.

Not here, that is true - but I’ve encountered sooo many Tolkien fans who idolized the effete bastards, and slammed them so often… hard habit to shake off

@Stealth_Potato

That’s nothing! Consider the case of Eärnur, the last king of Gondor until the coming of Elessar: he did not yet have any heirs, and yet he accepted a challenge of single combat from the freaking Lord of the Nazgûl himself, for which purpose he rode off to Minas Morgul, and was (some say predictably) never seen again. I’d love to have heard his reasoning for that little act of derring-do. It probably went something like this: […]

Naaah. Probably went more like :

• He called me a WHAT ?! Saddle my horse.
• But m’lord, you d-
• Saddle. My. Bloody. Horse.
• sigh Yes m’lord.

@Lightray

IMO, they’re more annoying because they’re so arrogant despite this. Had the ring not been plopped in their laps, they’d probably have dithered on until Sauron came knocking at their doors to invite them to the new neighborhood steering committee meeting.

Hehe, I could just picture that.

• Eviction order ?! But… but that’s our enchanted forest ! We built it from the ground up !
• Sor-ry. Boss sez we burns now.
• Boss ? Who’s boss ?
• Sauron. Great kingerz of aaaaall da world.
• *Sauron *?! That jeweler kid from Eregion ? When did *that *happen ?
• Big war all over da earth. Lots of fightin’. Killed all da men and da dorfs and da hobbitses and da eagles. Ya no notice ?
• … Oh. Oops.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Stealth_Potato

…the chief servant of a long-overthrown Dark Lord whose most deadly weapons had always been treachery and deceit…

You forgot fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to the aforementioned Dark Lord.

I’ll come in again.

[A_Dodgy_Dude]

Weakest point? The songs and poems. I skip over them every time I read the books.

[PharmBoy]

@Alessan

Anglo-Germanic folklore, actually. But yeah.

Tolkein was a specialist in Welsh folklore, so Celtic is appropriate, I think.

[DSYoungEsq]

@Lightray

Tolkien may have intended to write a world where the society was such that women were neither seen nor heard… but he did not end up there. He ended up with a world where there are several powerful women of consequence. Yes, they were exceptional women – but having established that there are these exceptional women in his world, Tolkien created an expectation that these women would somehow be relevant to his story. Else, why are they exceptional? That is the criticism here. (and really, for me, more of a quibble.)

But just because there are exceptional women does not mean that there should be no other women. The hobbits literally traveled to Mordor and back, and took note of only a handful of women. Even in wartime, in places that may or may not have been evacuated*, there should be some women around.

Im’ not saying they should be EQUALS with the men.. What I’m saying is that they should be there. And don’t use that “wasn’t in the sagas/folklore/legends” excuse. There are sisters and wives and daughters all throughout them.

• we know at least some women and children are in Minis Tirith, because we meet one of each. and Meduseld wasn’t evacuated until everyone trouped off to Helm’s Deep.

Again, you have YET to demonstrate WHY it NEEDS to be the case that they are mentioned. There undoubtedly ARE other women the hobbits interacted with. Serving maids in Edoras. Castle staff in Minas Tirith (before they were sent away the second day Pippen is there). The townsfolk of Bree. Female elves at Imladris. Etc, etc, etc.

But you don’t make any case for why these people are necessary in the telling of the story. Present THAT case, and you may get somewhere with your assertions.

[bienville]

@Mr.Excellent

What about Princeton? Certainly more urban than Rivendell, but it’s a great town, and the focus on scholarship and whatnot there is certainly Elvish enough.

Mmmm, Rivendell has to be really really pretty. Princeton is a good looking town for Jersey but it doesn’t make a Rivendell for me. “Scholarship and whatnot”?- maybe Princeton can be Isengard.

I liked the suggestion that Monmouth County is Bree.

[What_Exit]

@bienville

Mmmm, Rivendell has to be really really pretty. Princeton is a good looking town for Jersey but it doesn’t make a Rivendell for me. “Scholarship and whatnot”?- maybe Princeton can be Isengard.

Try it another way. Princeton is near the Rt 1 corridor without being on it. Amid so much that is not pleasant to see Princeton is like a jewel. Besides we just needed some fair equivalent and it is the best that Jersey can offer.

I liked the suggestion that Monmouth County is Bree.

Thanks. Actually with this extreme consolidation I think it would mean Monmouth held Bree, the Old Forest, The Shire and the Grey Havens. But pushing this any further will really get silly and I shall try to refrain.

[Malthus]

Funny conversation, this - the only part of New Jersey I’ve ever seen is the area immediately around Newark Airport. At the time, my wife remarked that those parts visible outside the airport looked “a lot like Mordor”.

[What_Exit]

@Malthus

Funny conversation, this - the only part of New Jersey I’ve ever seen is the area immediately around Newark Airport. At the time, my wife remarked that those parts visible outside the airport looked “a lot like Mordor”.

That is sadly fair. Actually with our smoking stacks and garbage dumps we cover both Isengard and Mordor in North Jersey. Several areas could stand in for Mirkwood but I don’t think we can produce a Lothlórien.