Did Eru sink Beleriand? I thought that was a result of the collective Valar actions in their war with Morgoth. The Valar then bent the world.
They weren’t just “nice and shiny” as Sam put it (yes movie sue me); they were designed to specifically kill Nazgul if not the Witch King himself.
I don’t think Gandalf thought Frodo was weak at all. Gandalf loved and respected the Hobbits in general and Bilbo and Frodo in particular. They didn’t have typical magic power the ring craved and subverted, but a hardy earthly independence. In short, they were tough and stubborn. I think Gandalf had every hope that Frodo could do it if they could get him to the mountain in one piece.
Possibly - but remember, Bilbo managed to let the ring go. Not without a struggle - IIRC, he was about to put it on the mantel, but found he had put it back in his pocket or something.
Gandalf may have known it was going to be NEARLY impossible, but “nearly” != “absolutely”. Certainly, until the ring was at Mount Doom, it could never be destroyed - so getting it there at all was an enormous, but necessary, undertaking.
Gandalf presumably could not have known how things would wind up, with Gollum being the final factor in the destruction. All in all, I think his sending Frodo on the quest was a faint hope of success. “Somehow it’ll work out. It HAS to”.
Correct.
Incorrect. The world got bent by Eru when Ar-Pharazôn invaded the Undying Lands. Before that Elves could go to Tol Eressëa sans magical intervention – it was just a boat trip.
My answer to the OP:
No idea what Gandalf’s full plan was but I think we can assume that it wasn’t: Frodo walks by himself to the volcano and throws the ring in, all by himself.
Technically speaking, you could put the ring on Gollum, frog march him to the volcano, and kick his butt in so that both the carrier and the ring are both destroyed together. There’s no need that the person who is holding the ring throw it in to the volcano, and nor is there any need for any person to take hold of the ring before throwing it into the volcano. The only reason to try and put the ring on someone like Frodo is because, maybe, he’ll stay clear-headed enough to peacefully walk with the thing, by himself, most of the way rather than trying to escape from the rest of the group.
But it would probably have been reasonable for Gandalf to assume that, at some point, they might have to imprison Frodo and cart him to the volcano in a cage. At that point, you just need to grab Frodo’s hand and shake it hard enough that he’s forced to let go - or chop his hand off or something.
Gandalf was probably expecting that they’d need to get a bit medieval with Frodo, at the end of the trip. Sam just made it less bad than it otherwise would have been.
At that point, you just need to grab Frodo’s hand and shake it hard enough that he’s forced to let go - or chop his hand off or something.
You may have nailed it. In the end, Frodo claimed the Ring for his own. (Cue Sauron panicking…) Then Gollum bit his finger off and the Ring with it.
Wow! I last read the LOTR over thirty years ago. You folks are convincing me I’m way overdue to read it again, and see some of what I’ve been missing.
Yeah. As I saw someone on another forum put it, "They weren’t +1 Daggers, they were Daggers of I Hate The Witch King, I Really Really Hate Him."
I don’t believe that’s consistent with the Gandalf in the book. And fwiw, I’m in the middle of re-reading it, and have just seen Pippin watch friendly armies enter Minas Tirith.
“Jesus, Take The Ring”
There is no doubt that Gandalf was fond of Bilbo and Frodo in particular and hobbits in general.
But, we know Gandalf sent Frodo on a deeply perilous quest. And, as the OP shows, a quest that Gandalf knew Frodo could not complete. But, there was no one else who could do it.
Gandalf encouraged Frodo to volunteer for the task. Gandalf was all about freedom of choice and mercy. He did not “send” anyone anywhere.
He did track down Gollum, and attempted to hold him prisoner. But he prevented several parties from killing Gollum, and after stripping Saruman of his staff and rank, he left him to make whatever choice he wanted to make.
It doesn’t say so explicitly in the book, but Gandalf was exerting a lot of subtle (magical) force to help Bilbo let go. Bilbo is unlikely to have done so without this help.
Somewhere Gandalf says that he was planning of going with Frodo into Mordor. G no doubt would have expected to exert the same magic to help Frodo toss the ring into the volcano.
True. But Gandalf was also very persuasive. Remember, Gandalf had a Ring of Power (Narya) which would inspire others. Gandalf would not make you do something but his encouragement was powerful.
This was Gandalf using the Elven ring Narya. It’s power was to kindle the fire of the human spirit. Basically, the perfect antidote to domination by the One Ring.
Gandalf arranged a burgle and fought, wielding Glamdring, in several battles - chopping people into bloody bits.
Being a good person doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily unwilling to do what’s necessary in exigent circumstances.
Killing a person attacking you is different from committing murder, though.
Regarding Gandalf, Frodo, and possible intentional or unintentional damages to Frodo BY Gandalf if the quest had gone differently, I’ll quote from the section mentioned in the OP.
IMHO, what would have happened in a happier fork where the Fellowship stood together and got a much less damaged Frodo to Mordor and he, as feared, could not willingly surrender it. Gandalf would likely, with a very heavy heart, force Frodo to surrender the ring, which almost certainly would have destroyed Frodo’s mind.
Gandalf is wise though, and knows the greatest healers of Middle-Earth - I have zero doubts he would have bent every resource and those he could command to mend Frodo’s mind out of both guilt, and because it was the right thing to do. And that leaves out his Level-up to Gandalf the White, and his known ability to mend men’s minds.
Would it have been successful in fully restoring Frodo? I’d bet not, given the ending of the quest. But everyone knew the risks involved, leading to our earlier analysis of Frodo’s everyman heroism.
I didn’t say that Gandalf was considering murder.
My statement about throwing Gollum into the volcano was simply to point out, to the OP, that the person bearing the ring didn’t need to be willing to give up the ring and that the people throwing away the ring don’t actually need to touch it. I wasn’t implying that this was Gandalf’s plan. I was pointing out a flaw in the OP premise - nothing more and nothing less.
Tying Frodo up and wacking his hand with a stick, or whatever is necessary to get him to let go, isn’t murder. If you really had to break a finger or two to get him to let the thing go, that’s certainly not the nicest thing that you could ever do, but it’s still not murder and would, presumably, be the last option taken by the Good Guys.
I suppose he could have simply picked Frodo up and tossed him into the fire himself.
Net effect: One destroyed ring. One mind-intact (very briefly) then dead Frodo. One horrified troupe of followers.