Being gay and being black are very different. However, since you took the time to construct such a thoughtful logical trap for me to step into, I will attempt to answer your question. First, AFAIK they are not doing anything to him physically that would be analogous to skin bleaching or hair straightening. Race and sexual orientation are not the same. But your analogy is funny to me because there are camps that teach suburban black kids to act “authentically black”. Apparently, these parents want their kids to be exposed to African American vernacular and cultural references. Are these camps evil? No, I don’t think so. They are stupid and wrong, but I wouldn’t go as far as saying they are evil.
But you are proposing the opposite, so let’s look at that issue. If I were sent to such a camp, I would be pissed. I’d hate it, I doubt it would work (as far as behavior modification), and I would be upset that I had to go. However, I wouldn’t necessarily consider those running the camp evil. I wouldn’t link to pictures of the women, and call them names. I wouldn’t intimate people who disagree are soulless pond scum. Most importantly, I wouldn’t consider suicide or murder. I would serve me two weeks and go back to being who I am. This kid has probably received hundreds of supportive e-mails. He will be OK.
It is a form of compulsory brainwashing. The “client” is not someone who chooses to go for “treatment” voluntarily. It is imposed by the parents who (in my view) don’t know what they are doing, or even worse, don’t care. The camp is run by brainwashers and hucksters who are in it for the easy money. They belong in prison.
If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all. - Noam Chomsky
“One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it… You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs.” - Bertrand Russell
…In religion, they become “holier than thou” types filled with terrible hatreds which in turn cause guilt complexes that drive them deeper into their religious frame of reference. The outlet for their scrambled emotions is to try to foist their beliefs - and their fears - onto the rest of us. - John Keel
Of all the tyrannies on human kind / the worst is that which persecutes the mind – John Dryden
Some who are too scrupulous to steal your possessions nevertheless see no wrong in tampering with your thoughts. – Kahlil Gibran
He never said you claimed they were necessary. You said the success rate is greater than 0%. You were asked for a cite. Someone you saw one time on Penn & Teller is not a reliable cite. You have yet to provide one. So cough up or shut up. Your coy schtick is getting old.
The people doing this are evil. Brainwashing is a form of torture. Do you agree or not, just yes or no will do nicely, thank you.
And yet, very analogous. Unless you’re under the misapprehension that being gay is a choice. It isn’t.
They have a page of testimonials. Here is the link. Happy? (they are PDFs)
I disagree that this is brainwashing in a practical sense.
Actually, they are not very analogous. There are two main similarities. People are discriminated because of both, and both are not a choice. The same could be said about fat people, and short people too. Those relationships are tenuous at best and don’t really help create a good analogy.
Which is sadder, that this thread has been hijacked into attempting to dispell ignorance to someone who holds on to it fiercely, or that this boy is going off to a reeducation camp to be brainwashed into heterosexuality, and his parents have defenders like brickbacon.
The prejudice gay men, lesbians, and the transgendered have endured in the 20th and 21st centuries are no different than the ones black men and women have endured.
Harassment and attack for merely existing.
Discrimination in housing(where you can rent, where you can buy)
Discrimination in the military
Discrimination on who you can marry
Discrimination on the job and even in the hiring process
The list goes on.
But of course, brickbacon will tell us how it either isn’t relevant, or that it’s still different.
The one difference is, unless one is very light skinned, one cannot hide the fact they are black. Gay people can and do hide because of prejudice and fear.
More nonsense. Slavery and Jim Crow were very different from the things gays have faced. If you are really trying to compare the two in terms of severity, then you are an idiot. The sad part is that you don’t even try to present an argument. You just call me ignorant and think that means something to me. Plenty of groups have faced prejudice. That doesn’t make these groups similar in every way.
You’re right - for example, in this day and age, you’re not very likely to get murdered for being black. I bet you’ve never felt terrified that you were going to be physically harmed for being black. I certainly have felt that way for being gay. You probably also don’t harbor baggage from all the times you’ve been tormented in the past for being black - racism, especially overt, attacking racism, is not very common in this day and age. So maybe it wasn’t a good analogy - you don’t understand at all why being rejected by your parents like this and going to a camp to tell you exactly how evil it is to be the way you are would hurt so much. And you don’t have the empathy to understand the kid’s words on his blog about how he feels, so no, you don’t see how much he’s hurting because of it.
But then, you’ve already made it clear that you think it’s okay to hurt others, at least a little. When would it stop being okay? What’s the dividing line?
Beyond that, you don’t really seem to be reading my words, or if you are, you don’t understand, so this is where I stop dignifying what you say.
The more I read, the more I think there’s something seriously wrong in his thought processes, because he keeps saying things that simply don’t make sense. Like that we’re “ignorant” because we don’t agree that he might well not be gay. I mean, look at this post:
Isn’t this a bizarre statement? “He could be anywhere along that line” - meaning that we can’t even assume that the kid’s right about being gay? For this statement to be true, his saying so would have to have no probative value. It would have to be the case that there was no correlation between being gay and calling yourself gay. brickbacon is saying that the folks who call themselves gay are actually no more likely to be gay than those who call themselves straight. Not only is it rhetorical nonsense for him to try to create doubt in the kid’s claim without presenting contrary evidence - brickbacon believes there is no relation between calling yourself gay and actually being gay. That indicates a serious inability to make judgments about the world around him. This sort of incoherence in his thought process just seems to me indicative that his ability to observe and analyze the world around him is disordered.
Zach’s blog saddens me, and those rules are atrocious. His last post was June 3, and I won’t be able to get it off my mind. Poor guy. I can only hope he can stick it out for those two weeks and not be too damaged by the experience.
Wrong. I have felt scared I would be physically harmed for being black. You are probably no mort likely to be murdered for being black then you are for being gay. For every Matthew Shepard, there is a James Byrd.
So because the racism is not overt, it is less pernicious? If you are really trying to argue that gays have it worse than blacks, I will have to disagree. Not that it matters anyway.
Are we arguing about the entire situation he finds himself in or just this camp? It is terrible that his family is intolerant of his lifestyle, but I still don’t think they are evil. This kid is troubled, and probably was before this whole camp thing. Most people don’t think of killing one of their parents. Even those that do, don’t write about it in a public forum. I notice nobody has mentioned that. Now, I’m sure his parents have not helped the situation, but let’s stop pretending like he is being tortured on a daily basis. He looks healthy, he obviously has a computer and other luxuries.
What I object to most is that you guys feel the need to fight intolerance with intolerance. Not only does this not advance the debate, but it makes many people not want to listen to what you have to say. Please discuss the following things if you decide to reply:
Why has nobody condemn the person who made fun of the way the women who run the camp look?
Why has nobody mentioned that the kid basically threatened to kill his mother?
Is everyone that considers homosexuality sinful and immoral an evil person?
When did I make it clear that it’s okay to hurt others?
No, I said you were ignorant because you cannot admit that some people may have been helped by these camps.
OK, now you are being dishonest again. I never said there was no correlation between being gay and calling yourself gay. More nonsense.
Where did I say that? Show me where I said something that wasn’t true.
brickbacon, I gotta admit that you are still just baffling me. Why is it that you seem to be able to see discrimination in nuanced terms (i.e. slavery is worse than what gay people face), and yet you seem to have this complete absolute when it comes to evil? What do you make of the fact, just to pull an example out of my ass, that at least in my state race is a protected class when it comes to housing, work and so forth and we have yet to be able to extend the same protection to people based on their sexual orientation?
How is it that you can’t see this institution and what is being done to the people that are forced to go there as a form of evil? What is it? Naughty? Loving, god-fearing parents that are just a little misguided?
How can you not be outraged? If the systematic exclusion of a group of people from societies institutions and forced indoctrination counter to their essential selves is not evil, what the hell would you call it?
Let me ask that another way; hypothetically, what is your bottom line? If I were to say that evil is something that is on a spectrum, what would you define as the least evil thing that would still be on that spectrum?
Let me put this another way: The main issue here is what is being done to this child and the ignorant and dreadfully archaic ways of thinking that make this possible. It is well and good for you to be concerned about the people running the place being made fun of based on how they look, and all of the other issues that you have raised. The thing is that these are things that we can worry about later. Indeed, in my opinion one of the great Liberal failings is that we spend so much time trying to be perfect and focusing on minutia that we forget the big issue.
No, actually, it’s just that generally gaybashing doesn’t make the mainstream media. I guess in particularly repulsive cases like this, it gets some media attention - but there are many, many other cases that go unreported.
That wasn’t really my point, but it’s clearly true. Look at things like legal anti-discrimination protections - blacks have that, gays don’t. We can’t even get married.
Someone with an ounce of empathy might think that it underscored how much he’s going through.
We’re being intolerant of doing harm to human beings who’ve done nothing to deserve it. I feel no shame in not tolerating that. People who tolerate that sort of thing, in other times and places, are called collaborators. I’m very happy not to be ‘tolerant’ of imprisoning some poor kid in a camp like this.
Because making fun of someone’s looks in an anonymous forum where she’ll never hear about it is nothing compared to what she does.
Threatened? Threatened? Are you stupid, or what? How could you consider what he said a threat?
Who even put that view forward? You resort to lies to prove your point?
You think it’s morally acceptable to do what these parents are doing. They are hurting their child for no good reason. Q.E.D.
Oh? People who were forced into them involuntarily?
If you think these camps do good, prove it. And not with “testimonials” from a group that provides them. That’s like proving a car is reliable by quoting a commercial for it. Find some statistics to support it. And then explain why the perhaps one person in ten thousand who is changed by them justifies this kid being committed involuntarily. Then try to reconcile that with the many people who have stated that they have no objection to people making the choice - stupid though it is - to try to change through these camps. Explain why this kid doesn’t have a right to make his own choices.
I quoted you. That was a logical summation of your quote. If you disagree, then explain why “he could be anywhere on that spectrum.” Because that statement makes no sense unless you believe that calling oneself gay has no probative value. Otherwise, then him calling himself gay is sufficient. Unless, of course, you can find evidence against it. You can’t. You’ve been arguing from ignorance this entire time. “You can’t prove my claims are false” is a nonargument.
Case in point. This case hasn’t gotten nearly the air time that, say, Laci Peterson got, and it is every bit as horrifying and disgusting. In fact, the defendants got a hung jury in what should have been a slam dunk. I’m disgusted that it happened in my home town.
I’d really like to say yes…but not especially. Mainly because I don’t see anything remotely resembling scientific or medical research in there which states that being gay is a choice, and these people have made it and are “cured.” Just a lot of sad stories of very scared people who buckled to pressure.
I think my view of evil is just as nuanced. I just don’t feel the actions we are talking about rise to that level. While I understand the need for gays to be considered a protected class, I think the reason why they aren’t in many states is because you can’t look at someone and tell they are gay (usually). I would like to see the law changed, but let’s not pretend it’s the same as other protected classes.
As I said before, I think it’s wrong, but evil seems too harsh of a label. Maybe I just have a different scale than most, but I usually reserve that word for more heinous acts. For example, if a black family sends their suburban black child to a “black camp” so that s/he will learn to act more black, would you consider that evil? I understand the motivation behind the two are often different, but the involuntary behavior modification part many of you had a problem with is still there.
Is one’s sexual orientation their essential self? It may be part, but most people are far more complex than that. But, I suppose that is beside the point. I don’t see this situation as fitting the narrow definition you described. If it did, I would agree with you. Systematic exclusion and forced indoctrination should entail more than a two week camp. Not to trivialize what the kid is going though, but describe it as you have seems a bit much.
Well, things like torturing animals would be up there.
And another great failing is that we’ve lowered ourselves to employing the same tactics many of our opponents do. Fighting intolerance with intolerance, etc. I noticed this soon after becoming a doper, and it really bothers me. I was pilloried for using the word, “hater” and presenting opinions that others disagree with. Or saying I think people with multiple cats are odd or having an un-PC opinion about transsexuals. Rather than engage in an honest debate, the offenderati whip out their wittiest insults and put-downs, calling anyone who disagrees ignorant or stupid. I’m not complaining, because I’ve dished out my share of vitriol in response to this, but we should all try to stop this. Too many people here are arrogant elitist snobs who try to shout down anyone who disagrees with them. I know you guys don’t believe me, but I actually am in strong agreement with you on most of these issues. What I don’t agree with is calling people evil or demonizing people for having a different perspective on an issue.
I’ve already chosen sides on this issue. As I have stated many times, I think the parents are wrong and the camp is stupid and unnecessary. What I don’t support is all of this talk about them being evil. I get that the source of most of their feelings is homophobia. I get how damaging and corrosive that can be, but that doesn’t make it okay to make shit up to support your case. The roots of their feelings are probably somewhere deep in their subconscious like they are with most people. You know how many people hate rap music, affirmative action and reparations because deep down they feel Blacks are inferior? Not all of those people are evil. It does not good spewing invectives at people who trying to do what they think is right.
Look at his passage form his blog:
I took two things away form this. One, they sound like distraught, misguided parents who truly want the best for their son. You don’t cry because you don’t care. They also laid off him for two weeks so he could finish school. Do raging homophobes do that? It’s not like they beat him up and disowned him. Give these people some credit for dealing with a difficult situation the best they could. It was far from perfect, but better than many have responded.
Two, the coming out was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the only problem. does that make their decision to send him to camp okay? No, but it rules out the malicious intent many of you ascribed to them. He talks about wishing he hadn’t told them, and them going back to being mad at him all the time, instead of being depressed and crying. It seems there was a rift long before his coming out. He also talks about forgetting to take his meds (unless that’s a joke). You guys act like all this stuff happened in a vacuum. You think him having to go to camp is the only reason he thinks about killing his mom? This story has a lot more elements to it than we know. I’m not saying he’s a bad kid, but the frustration his parents feel is probably due to more than just him being gay.
Those are the reasons I’m saying you should give these people a break. The camp is, of course, a stupid idea. But, let’s not pretend two weeks of camp is going to destroy who he is.
And the same is not true for racially motivated crimes?
I’ve done that many times. You don’t know me well enough to make such statements about my character.
I was referring to the demonization of his parents and the people at the camp. Being wrong is more than enough. Calling them evil is wrong and unnecessary.
So that makes it okay in your eyes?
Are you fucking serious? You can’t be that fucking stupid. Let’s look at the tape:
He admits to thinking about killing his mom and himself all the time. That is an indirect threat. I don’t get how some of you can claim he has threatened suicide and not admit he also threatened his mother. If I had said the same about the President, I’d have the Secret Service at my house right now. You can play semantics games if you want, but any rational person can recognize that as an expression of intent and desire to inflict harm on someone else.
Did I say someone said that? It was a question dumbass.
Where did I say it was morally acceptable?
The fact that they are supplied by the company doesn’t mean they are invalid. You asked for examples of people who the program has helped. I provided them. Explain to me why these testimonials are unbelievable.
This kid is a kid, not an adult. Kids are often not allowed to make their own choices.
No, it’s not a logical summation of what I said. I made no mention of there being no correlation between actual sexual orientation and self identified orientation. I said people often change their minds as they grow up. What is so hard understand about that?
You’re right. Let’s use a much closer analogy: Left-handedness.
Left-handedness, like homosexuality, is a natural variation.
Like homosexuality, this natural variation (or affliction, if you prefer) is expressed in approximately ten percent of the population.
Like homosexuals, left-handed people have historically been singled out for persecution, on the basis of their deviation from the majority.
For a long time Christian authority (like many other belief systems) was at pains to suppress the deviant expression of left-handedness. “Devil on the left, angel on the right.” A long time. Not talking about something that went by the wayside in remote medieval times. No sir.
My father was an “ex-lefty.” He was born left-handed, but the nuns beat it out of him. Swift application of a yardstick to his dominant hand any time he was caught using it, and a harder application to his bottom if he complained about it.
You’d think that that bizarre ordeal was over when he finished school – but no. They convinced him that he was born wrong. He wrote right-handed until the day he died. An appalling hen-scratch, but it was a right-handed hen-scratch. (He gave every indication that he hated those goddamned nuns, though.)
When my older brother started showing signs of the same deviant behaviour, my father applied the same Skinnerist techniques to correct him. Unfortunately, my mother fled with her children before Terry could be made “right for life,” and was doomed to his wicked left-handed lifestyle.
Somehow, within the memory of many people still living, the last remnants of the bizarre belief that left-handedness was somehow sinful (sinister, if you prefer) have all but disappeared. Devout people now accept that left-handed people (or even their left-handed behaviours) are just fine the way they are, and don’t need to be punished or “cured.”
The only difference between that and what goes on at the “Love In Action” camp is a matter of degree. “Love In Action” is more single minded and more sophisticated in its behaviour modification techniques.
One day soon, God willing, the bizarre and irrational belief that the normal variation of homosexuality is a sin will be consigned to the same heap of inexplicably wrong-headed ideas.
It is my fervent wish that folks who call themselves Christian and use parts of the OT to justify their ill treatment of gay people – and especially gay family members – would remember that the whole point of the man’s ordeal was to bring a new testament, “not of the letter, but of the spirit.”
They should sit down and read John 15 until they get it. The spirit of it.
I might also add that we’ve come far enough that most Christians see nothing contradictory about pious Ned Flanders operating his Leftorium.
It won’t be long before nobody blinks at gay Christian dating services, either.
Just like nobody thinks it’s odd that a Christian would own an oyster bar, or a Christian tailor makes clothes featuring mixed fabrics, or a Christian gift shop would give tacit support to the idea of eating proscribed flesh.
All of these arbitrary proscriptions go by the wayside – because they’re branches that want pruning. They’re pointless and fruitless.
This is ridiculous. There is nothing you can say to make brickbacon et al believe that homosexuality is not a sin or is not deviant. So even continuing an arguement based on that is futile.
Another facet of this topic is whether or not this camp is morally justifiable. Anyone who would even consider sending a child to a camp like this will be certain and firm in the belief that it is morally justified. Even those that find the camp barbaric are still complicit in sanctioning homophobia. Again,you could argue until you are blue in the face but you will not change someone’s mind on that. There are homosexuals that truly and honestly believe that they are wrong in God’s eyes. All the analogies in the world are not going do a damned thing.
(Speaking of analogies, for the Love of God people, stop mentioning racism when talking about homophobia. They are not at all the same thing. Why not argue the merits or demerits of homosexuality without bringing that tired comparison up. I mean, really).
I really don’t think the parents will care if that boy doesn’t walk out craving vagina. Just as long as he never ever sucks cock. 'Cause not person in their right mind can believe that a 2 week camp is going to make someone “un-gay.” In that way, as long as the child maintains the party line, the camp is a success.
I am going to take an unpopular stance and say those parents are NOT evil. If they honestly, truly, completely think their kid is being damned to firey pits of hell, then they are doing what they think is right. Their decision may just be colored by what they think is real concern for their child. Sometimes, just sometimes, intentions should be taken at their face value. They may be wrong (and once again, neither you nor I say is going to change that) but their actions are well with-in the rights of parental control.
And that is the REAL and only valid question this whole thing raises: just how much rights a minor has in his or her own upbringing, how much control does a parent and should a parent weild. A child can be forced into a substance abuse clinc. Not the same thing, homosexuality and drug abuse, you say. Not according to his parents. What is needed is a reevaluation of when and how a teen can override a parent’s decision about things that will completely alter their his life.
My thoughts are scattered. But after reading the two hundred thousand posts, I feel like my thoughts are hard to organizen to address everything that has been said.