"Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing

The BBQ Pit
221

I would hope that it goes without saying that I am steadfastly opposed to the so-called “ex-gay” ministries as contrary to the teachings of Christ and of Paul. And there are, or ought to be, explicit limits to what parental views can be enforced on teens by compulsion.

I am wondering why this 16-year-old cannot become/declare himself emancipated, and perhaps some of the gay activist organizations might find ways to fund houses for gay teens that are in that sort of position. Do any of the gay members here know anything about the feasibility of such programs?

Final comment: there are no objective figures on the success rate for “ex gay programs,” with figures from 66% to well below 1% quoted. The one thing I’ve seen that has any pretense to objectivity was by one of the medical-psychological groups (but I don’t recall which one, so it’s not much of a cite) which gave a figure of 0.5%. The evidence seemed to indicate that those who were the alleged successes were bisexual in orientation and able to suppress (in the literal sense) any same-sex attraction, which they felt to be inherently sinful and therefore inducing intense guilt in them. I offer this to try to defuse the sidebar this thread has developed on the question of whether there are successes and what they might be.

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You say this, then you go on to parrot everything I’ve said over the last 5 pages? Are you serious? I’ve have no problem with homosexuality. I don’t believe it’s wrong or immoral. I never said that it was, and I’ve never made that argument.

223

Yeah we get that. At least most of us do, I think. As far as I am concerned, that really isn’t the issue. Have you noticed that waaaaay back on page two FriarTed made a post that is not only counter to the opinion of a lot of folks posting here but, indeed, one which I would go so far as to say many of us find loathsome? Have you further noticed that he has taken astonishingly less crap for it than you are in this thread? Why do you think that is?

See, your posts claim to find fault with what is happening to this boy and, in a larger sense what is happening to queers in society at large yet you are spending most of your time criticizing those who’s views you claim to share. When you get right down to it, you seem to me to be nothing more than a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

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brickbacon, I’m not pretending that you’ve made points valid enough to merit a reply. All I’m going to say is that it’s obvious your motives are different from what you claim; no one could possibly become this upset because we’re calling an action “evil” when you think it’s merely “wrong”. Why not be honest here? It’s not some great injustice for us to call their actions “evil”. And you have yet to even put forth a line of reasoning to suggest why this action is not evil except that “it’s not that bad.” I’ve already explained that you’ve presented an opinion and no one else is obliged to agree.

Obviously, the real truth is that you don’t care about what this kid is going through - you wouldn’t be working so hard to defend the people torturing him otherwise. Fine. What is the point of you posting here? Do you think you’ll convince the rest of us not to care about him? What’s your purpose in arguing this? What’s the point of view you’re actually trying to push?

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You’ve spent five pages trying to defend those who do. You expect anyone to believe that it’s just this big a deal when we call something “evil” that you think is just “wrong”? You’ve disguised your actual viewpoint behind five pages of idiotic semantic nitpicking because you don’t want to admit your real purpose here. No one could possibly think it’s really an issue whether these folks are doing “evil” or just “wrong”.

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How are you going to tell me what I am really thinking? It is a big deal because it poisons any honest debate. You think the civil rights movement could have been successful if every activist called every white person evil? Then made fun of the way they looked? If you really think you can convince the large number of people in this country that disagree with homosexuality to open their minds by demonizing their position, then you are wrong. That should be the goal.

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Rich words coming from someone who’s clearly uninterested in an honest debate, as I will now demonstrate yet again.

See? Dishonesty. No one here has stated that all straight people are evil. If you’ve actually read that into what has been written, then you do need to see a mental health professional, because you have lost reality testing. Hell, no one here has implied that all homophobes are evil. We’ve said that one particular pair of (straight) people is doing something evil. You’ve extrapolated that to “all straight people are evil.” Like I said, this is the result of an incoherent thought process.

No one has suggested that all straight people are ugly, just that two of them are. They’re much uglier inside than outside, so making fun of their looks when they can’t possibly find out about it is not that great a crime. Such is the deadness of your morality, though, that you actually have been arguing that making fun of someone’s looks is the moral equivalent of imprisoning them for two weeks. You’ve got a sickness, brickbacon.

Who was trying to convince homophobes of anything? There’s a lot of people in this thread who decided to talk about how upset we are about something bad that happened. You came in, you started arguing, you shit over everyone’s (rightful) anger about this, trying to claim that it’s not that bad. You’ve insulted the young man in question by questioning whether he really isn’t straight with no evidence, which is the logical equivalent of me asking whether you can prove you don’t screw sheep. You insulted other posters simply for having the nerve to disagree with your semantic nitpicking.

Given your rampant dishonesty and utter lack of sympathy for this kid, I’m comfortable believing you’re not being honest about your motives here either. Because your little semantic playgames could not possibly justify the page after page of your rantings. It’s clear that you have some other purpose in this argument. And by the standards you have set forth in this thread, I’m perfectly in the right to decide what your motives are. After all, you stated that we have no evidence that this kid is actually gay, because his say-so’s not enough. Fine, but the same goes for you. Your say-so is not enough, and all the evidence points to you having a hidden motive.

No one came in here for an honest debate, and you, obviously, least of all. In fact, no one came here for a debate at all, but you decided to start one. You have the presumption to tell LGBT people and our advocates how we are allowed to fight for our rights, which is a repulsive thing to do. And you showed, over and over, that you have no sympathy for this kid. You’ve minimized his suffering in every way you possibly can, you’ve mischaracterized what he said, you suggested he was lying about his sexuality and you were optimistic that this therapy might work, because apparently fixing one queer kid makes it all copacetic in your eyes.

Don’t bother us with your idiocy or your covert homophobia anymore.

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Jim Crow and slavery weren’t evil, though, either. I mean, at least with Jim Crow, the blacks had separate facilities-just like whites. It wasn’t that bad, I mean, they shouldn’t have whined about it.

And slaves were taken good care of, they were expensive, so of course their owners weren’t evil.

Dude, that’s exactly what you sound like. BTW, if someone did become “ex-gay” from that camp, I do NOT consider that “being helped.” Quite the opposite.

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What does the word **HELP **mean in this context? When you say that some of these kids might have been helped, does that mean that they have been successfully turned into heterosexuals?

The only “help” that kid needs is to rescue him from people who don’t give a shit about him, only about their own agenda, and are eager to remove all his individuality and uniqueness and self-respect.

Nobody would use the word “help” that way, except someone who agrees with the entire anti-gay agenda.

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But we are evil. The blue eyed devil. Da Man. Didn’t you get the memo? :smiley:

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Excaliber captured a LOT of what we all think, or at least me. I think I was the one who called the camp operators evil, and I meant it. They are scumbags, fucking around in people’s minds for money. I stand by what i said. To hell with them. The parents are just “dumb as paint” stupid.

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I was just thinking pretty much that recently. Who knew I was as smart as Bertrand Russell? :wink:

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Maybe. But the game is politics, and they’re winning. You might have a lot of facts packed into your pretty little head, but stupid is as stupid does.

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Yeah, how can anyone think unreasoning bigotry has any similarity to unreasoning bigotry. Comparing racism and homophobia is like comparing apples and Granny Smiths.

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Oh, is that why we’ve progressed as far in thirty years as a lot of civil rights movements have in a hundred? In the last two years we’ve gotten same-sex marriage in my country and sodomy has been legalized in yours. In my lifetime we’ve moved from nonentities with no rights to being constitutionally protected and included in the human rights code in every province and territory in this country. In the States, yes, there’s a backlash, and things are frightening, but we’re talking about marriage rights when, twenty years ago, we were focussing on not being wiped out entirely by plague and then maybe getting the sex we have legalized.

Gods know we still have a long row to hoe, and there’s a step back for every two steps forward, but we are winning.

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You patronizing ass.

You finally admit in the Freedom Fries thread you were wrong about that and then have the gall to come in here and tell the gay people how they should be doing things.

Your bullshit politics DON’T WORK.

Your brand of politics is soulless and is doomed for that very reason.

The truly stupid thing is wasting time listening to you. Worse would be having to BE you.

Canada doesn’t behave as if Reefer Madness were a documentary with scientific validity, and doesn’t stop people from having equal rights because of absurd ideas on what should fit together.

Maybe our country will grow up someday and be like Canada.

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I gotta say, I don’t think brickbacon is a homophobe, or anything remotely similar. I don’t know why he’s so hung up on the word evil, but that’s his hang-up, not mine. I have no problem calling the people who run these camps evil. Whatever their intentions are, their actions have caused far too much damage to be called anything but. I think homophobia is, by definition, evil. But there are very, very few people in the world who are wholly defined by their homophobia (Fred Phelps, I’m looking at you.) Most people have both good and evil in them. Whatever motivation it sprang from, Zach’s parents comitted an evil act when they enrolled their son in this camp. Hopefully, the balance of their life will hold enough good to overcome that in the end.

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But until then . . . they’re winning.

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According to Zach’s second to last post, he has now been at this “camp” for one week. Is he allowed mail at this point?

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If they were winning, things would be worse than they were thirty years ago. They’re not. We are winning.