Who needs Christians vs. lions? We have Christians vs. non-Christians right in this very thread! 
::starts making popcorn::
HASTUR:
But not Methodists or Presbyterians or Unitarians or Lutherans or Episcopalians or Catholics. In other words, some Christians, not all Christians. That’s my point.
Oh, I think most of us know this. Some of the truly fundamentalist sects will not celebrate the secular parts of Christmas or Easter (or Halloween at all) for this exact reason.
Bushwa. Judaism is pre-Christian; re-read the Old Testament to see how pro-gay the Jews were.
Absolutely untrue. Strict Jews are not terribly accepting of gays. Neither are Moslems. You can hardly lay the existence of anti-gay prejudice at the feet of Christianity.
The thing is, there is no indication from your posts – or Exprix’s – that you in fact know that these views are held by a “vocal minority” and not by everyone – that’s the whole point. Again, I wonder how happy you would be if I decided to generalize about homosexuals from the actions of a vocal minority, even though I know full well you don’t all act the same. I imagine it would kind of piss you off? So why is it okay for you to do this to Christians?
Also by Hastur:
Is it fair for me to assume you read what you write? Which loving group of pagans was spreading hate towards Christians?
Jodi:
People do generalize about homosexuals from the actions of a vocal minority. Look at the thread where Esprix is being scourged for supposedly being a one trick pony(hat better be a good trick, and I wanna SEE it). It does piss me off, but I do often use qualifiers that does not encompass ALL Christians, just segments.
Furthermore, I see Judeo-Christian religions springing from similar roots, and thus do not seperate them. They may have started differently, but they worship the same deity.
I assume you are talking about people in jail and not those that invited you attend their church.
BTW, who was stoned?
Does that bother you more than the stoning? You seem to be debasing Christians more for verbal disagreements than for actual stonings, which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Also by Hastur:
You don’t tell me what deity I really worship and I won’t tell you what deity you actually worship. K?
And what deity do you worship?
HASTUR:
Uh, no; as far as I can tell, you don’t. In this very thread you said “What pissed me off about Christians is the way they debase and deride any other faith that is not theirs.” Did I miss the qualifiers there?
Oh. Okay. Well, don’t expect people to understand you, then. Moslems worship the same God, too, BTW. That doesn’t mean that Moslem=Christian=Jew. If you refuse to acknowledge the profound differences between these major religions, then you can hardly be surprised if you confuse people. BTW, it appears I may comfortably assume you are a Satan worshiper, so long as I advise you beforehand that I choose not to differentiate between any religions that are not my own.
BTW, it bothered me that you would blythely lay the entire prejudice against homosexuality at the feet of Christianity, when it has always been my understanding that such prejudice is prevalent in many societies and many religions. (I’m not saying this is RIGHT, merely that it is SO.) So I did some looking (I love google):
From http://www.realtime.com/~gunnora/gayvik.htm ,(answering a question about how Vikings viewed homosexuals): “those Scandinavians who attempted to avoid marriage because of their sexuality were penalized in law.”
From http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/africa.html :
From http://www.bahai-library.org/unpubl.articles/homosexuality.html :
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm :
I am by no means saying that universal prejudice against gays is not to be deplored – it is. But the very fact that it is so prevalent through history and throughout the world means you cannot blame it on Christianity alone, much as you would apparently like to.
I worship the Christian God and I resent being thrown into the Jewish-Christian religion just like you complained of being stereotyped as a Satanist because of the deity you worshipped.
This was adressed to Hastur.
As Jodi just pointed out, they are the same God worshipped differently by different sects. I think you are just looking for purchase to be offended. Hecate isn’t the deity I worshipped, she is the Goddess I WORSHIP.
Well, in addition to Judaism (already mentioned), homosexuality was, and still is looked on negatively in Hinduism, I believe (will try to find a cite if you want). Also, Stoicism frowned on it, giving the argument “Everything has a natural end, and the natural end of sex is procreation, so homosexuality is against nature.” The Christian apostle Paul basically stole this argument in his letter to the Romans. Epicurus said that homosexuality was bad because it hurt the bonds of friendship between men. It was also looked on negatively in Republican Rome. It was punishable by death by fustarium (one of the military death penalties…the members of the convicted’s squadron would beat him to death with clubs) in the army, and it was a liability in politics…considered a “weak, Grecian habit.” That was one of the things that Scipo’s enemies used against him, Cato the Censor particularly, and it hurt his political rise. In fact, two Latin insults are fellator! and irrumator!, so persecution against gays isn’t confined to Christianity or Judaism.
Hastur
Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha. Ok sorry that just made me laugh so hard after you explained your position hastur.
Also Esprix was flamed for constantly posting about homosexuality. No one accused anyone else of doing this. In fact it was the opposite, saying that its only so obvious because of the posters homophobia making generalizations about straight people. Of course we all know Esprix would never post a thread about homosexuality right?
Well, it’s an interesting question you posed in the OP Esprix.
First of all, while Christians are admonished to “love thy neighbor as themselves,” I am under no particular onus to do that. In general it’s a very good rule of thumb, but it does not rise to the level that I feel I must love those who have actually earned a good bucketful of contempt, dislike, or even hatred. There are people out there that deserve, IMO, hatred. Fred Phelps, the Christian Identity and KKK folks, unrepentant killers, child rapists, and so forth. There are others that deserve my contempt or dislike, and this includes some people who may or may not be Christians. Anyone who is an unapologetic bigot, is someone I at least dislike, and quite frankly I find anyone who is a hidebound dogmatist, whether it be political, religious, or other, fairly deserving of some measure of contempt. That should not be taken to mean that I think it’s okay to hunt down Fred Phelps, or anything of that srt. I just feel no particular guilt hating people and ideas that I find vile.
With regards to Christians: I will admit that I have a certain degree of prejudice against the religion and its adherents. There are many basic issues I am emotionally invested in that certain Christians actively oppose or work to counter, like censorship, prayer in schools, teaching sex ed, and so forth. Add to that an annoying tendency for some of them to tell me I’m hellbound, exhorting me to repent my sinful ways, or treating me as though I was an object of pity because I haven’t found God. So when I meet someone who proclaims himself a Christian, certain warning bells go off. “This person might be one of those Christians.” That being said, I try my best to judge every person based on their own individual beliefs and actions, rather than their affiliation with Christianity. There are all sorts of Christians out there who do not do any of those things. Many flat-out reject the philosophical positions espoused by many Christians that I object to. Simply put, Christianity is too broad a term, and I can’t tell much about an individual based on his affiliation with the religion. Condemning an individual on such a broad basis is appropriate only when dealing with the French!
This thread got crazy, fast.
On making a general case, aka stereotyping. It happens, and is not necessarily a bad thing. Were all christians being stereotyped as good I would warrant nary a complaint would peep out for this. So, we don’t mind stereotypes, so long as they’re nice. Bah.
Stereotyping is a necessary fact of living amidst a large population. It is impossible to get to know every person, organization, sect, etc. Thus, in an attempt to understand situations, we generalize a group based on actions that we have first-hand experience in. Democrats and Republicans, Jehovas Witnesses and Mormons, Christians and Jews, Atheists and Satanists. Hippies. Yuppies. The core of our “cultural” language is STEEPED IN GENERALIZATIONS. It is unfortunate that many of these are negative, but that does not remove its usefulness.
In my personal experience, I dislike Christians. They’re in my family(born-again and non-denominational), and they are not nice. I was raised Catholic, and that part of my family isn’t nice. I had Baptist friends, and they were nice but unreasonable IMO. By this time it is impossible for me to have not formed some sort of linking between these groups, and guess what that was.
It was only recently that I found a group of Jehovas in the town where I lived (at the time) and got to know a few. I genuinely liked these people. I also got to know some mormons, but I will not say anything about this faith out of the pit. Anyway, I have now refined the stereotype to stay true, without removing it completely.
Some traits commonly ascribed to Christians by me:
- The quick identification of sin in society which is considered lawful by government.
- Wanting simultaneously everyone to have their morals(when they’re winning) and yet for everything to be fair(when they’re losing). This is in reference to social matters and debates.
- A tendancy to quote the bible to people who, obviously, do not hold the bible to be of any value. This one continuously amazes me.
- A desire to ignore their own sins, sometimes even when those sins are directly pointed out to them (and I try to do this a lot having read the bible before)
Now, were I to directly accuse anyone here of any of these things I would be quickly chastized (as history in this thread has borne out). However, I can assure you, this is my default “Christian” in my head until they show me different. The generalizations above have been reduced greatly after meeting the many people one meets as age increases. I would like to think that eventually all or most of my generalizations would disappear. Unfortunately, experience thus far has clearly been in favor of this set being more accurate than no assumption at all.
THAT said, none of these generalizations ever stop me from talking to christians. It is merely my own tool for creating a mind-set for dealing with a new, unknown person. Feel free to prove me wrong for you, but much like you don’t want them to reflect on you, you won’t reflect on them, either.
Ridiculous! Looking for a point to be offended? Pulease! The thread is partly called “Hate Christianity.” How hard would I have to look if I were interested in being offended? However, I did not mention the title because I took the OP as Esprix wrote it. He wrote with a very open-minded outlook. You spit out a bunch of “I don’t like Christians because…”
And I would disagree with Jodi. I worship Jesus Christ as God. Jews do not.
HASTUR:
I did not say this. Judaism and Islam and Christianity are not different sects of one religion; they are different religions. Moreover, I would suggest that someone who is so willfully ignorant of the religions of others has little cause to complain that people misunderstand his religion.
You have lumped my religion in with religions that are not mine and asserted that we are all adherents of the same faith, simply because you personally choose not to distinguish between the separate faiths. Now, as it happens, this does not insult me personally – I just find it puzzling. But do not act as if there are not grounds for offense – especially since it offends you when people insist on lumping your religion (paganism) with another one that is not your own (Satanism).
A deity is the same as a god or goddess.
AYNRAND:
When is negative stereotyping a good thing? Please give me an example.
This strikes me as self-evident.
Nonsense. It is absolutely unnecessary and demonstrably counterproductive to draw negative stereotypes of large groups of people based upon personal observation of a few members.
Please explain the usefulness of the following “generalizations”: Blacks are dishonest. Hispanics are lazy. Women are over-emotional. Men are stupid. Gays are perverted. Straights are smug. Muslims are terrorists. Jews are cheap.
[QUOTE]
In my personal experience, I dislike Christians . . . .
[quote]
Sigh. It sounds like nobody is very interested to determining whether it is okay to overgeneralize about Christianity from the actions of fundamentalist or fringe Christians; instead, everybody just wants to post their own negative generalizations. Which is fine, I guess, but hardly deserving of a response.
My general opinion of people who like Ayn Rand is that they have very small brains. Mind you, I don’t say that this opinion is fair or even defensible, but it’s my opinion and it’s up to you to disprove it.
JENKINSFAN:
Do you contend that you worship a different God than the Jews do? Because I know of no Christian denomination that supports this.
Jews do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ – i.e., that He was the Son of God. Nor do they believe that, divine or not, He was a part of God, which is why some strict Jews will assert that if Jesus was divine then Christianity is a form of polytheism (i.e., you worship two gods, God and Jesus).
As I’m sure you know, Christians reject this rationale. They believe that Christ is an aspect, if you will, of the One God, manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But the One God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses. After all, Jesus was a Jew, and He was not advocating the worship of any God but the Jewish God.
Generalizations are bad when they cannot possibly be true. Most generalizations cannot possibly be true therefore they are bad. Its impossible to argue negatively about generalizations since you undermine your arguement as it gets stronger.
Asmodean, I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re posting blind. I’m utterly unable to correlate any of your posts to anything in this thread you may think you’re responding to.
Are somehow reading one thread and posting to another? Or is the entity known as “Asmodean” in fact nothing more than a random-post generator?