why?
We’ve stated the rule in full (did you read it?). Where in the rule does it say anything about where the kicker is when the knee is down?
why?
We’ve stated the rule in full (did you read it?). Where in the rule does it say anything about where the kicker is when the knee is down?
At the point that the kicker crosses in front of the holder, it is no longer qualifies under the esception (because there isn’t a player in position to make the kick), unless there’s been a simulated kick.
Depends on the throw. It could actually be counted as a forward pass, if it really moves forward.
Edit: It looks like it was a lateral in that play, though.
What Diomedes said. Yes, I read the rule; I practically know it by heart. On a message board for officials who officiate games under NCAA rules, we’ve been discussing just how far we might let the kicker get away before we blow it dead. The general consensus is if you imagine a line running from goal line to goal line through the holder, and sideline to sideline, as long as the kicker is in his usual “quadrant”, he’s in position to kick the ball. If he crosses behind the holder or across the ball, he’s not really in position to kick anymore - no one kicks from those angles. In practice, if he’s on the run, he might get a step or two beyond that before the whistles come out. Fakes catch us by surprise, too.
I see. Sounds like the board is humming.
I’ll throw this out to you, though. What, exactly, does it mean to “simulate a kick?” Does there have to be a simulation with the leg actually swinging? Or is simply lining up in a place kick formation and going through all the motions except that of the kicker attempting a kick a simulation?
I guess the real issue is, at what point does the intent of the rule become inapplicable? The obvious point to the exception to ball down by contact is to first of all allow a holder to have a knee down while holding for the place kick, and second of all, to allow a “fake” kick attempt with the holder in typical holder position. If you are going to allow fake kick attempts, and this will qualify, then what difference does it make how far the kicker runs before the ball is tossed to him? It isn’t going to be very far just from the dynamics of the play, because if the defense touches the holder while his knee is in contact with the ground, the play is dead regardless of where the kicker is. One could just as easily argue that the kicker in this case never simulated a kick; how does what “quadrant” he is in matter in that regard?
In other words, if you are going to be sticklers about how the rule is worded, then the play was incorrectly allowed to proceed the very moment it was clear the kicker wasn’t attempting a kick (which was before the toss backward). If you are allowing the fake to be attempted under the rule, who cares where the kicker is in relation to the holder?
Do you have a citation to the rule on the high school situation?
“simulate a kick” just means “pretend to kick the ball but don’t”. I wouldn’t consider a leg swing necessary as long as the kicker takes an approach that would normally be associated with a kick. It’s in there because if you run at the ball like you’re going to kick it, but don’t, you’ll no longer be in position to make the kick. The rule allows the holder to continue his kneel and fool the defense before getting up and executing the fake.
There’s a few instances where the NCAA rulebook is purposefully vague to allow a referee to use some common sense. This is one of them.
Well, the rule is designed to allow the kicking team to run a reasonable fake, but not to leave the holder sitting down forever. In addition, the rule is designed to allow a player to recover a loose snap but still get down and hold the ball for a placekick – so as long as a player is in position to kick, the holder is still live.
He doesn’t need to attempt a kick; he only needs to be in a place where he could, or have just faked kicking.
No one wants to see a fun play canceled on a technicality, and NCAA officials try to follow the axiom “make it big”, so I doubt anyone will kill the play until the kicker is completely out of position.
Sorry, no. I refuse to accept the existence of a National Federation of High Schools football rulebook (in the vain hope that doing so will prevent Texas from switching as the NCAA rules become more TV-oriented), I don’t own a copy, and I can’t find one online. This is commonly cited as one of the major differences between the two rule codes.