I’ve been watching and playing football my whole life, but there is one situation that I’ve never seen, and have always wondered about. Its hard to explain but let’s try.
statement 1. If a punt coverage man jumps at the one yard line, and bats the ball back over the goal line with neither him or them having ever touched the goal line or anything past it, even though it is past the goal line in the air, and a teammate downs on the one yard line , the offence starts at the one.
statement two. If a Punt coverer touches the ball but doesn’t control it, a punt returner can grab the ball and run. One of the advantages of this is that even if he fumbles, It will go back to the punt returning team because the punt coverer technically is guilty of Illegal touching. It is a penalty that isn’t explicticly called very often because downing the ball happenes several times ever game, but if what happens after the illegal touch is bad for the returning team, the ball will be given back to them because of this rule.
Now combining these two situations. A punt coverer jumps at the one, bats the ball backwards. The punt returner grabs the ball out of the air, runs a little bit, get hit and fumbles, a member of the punt covering team recovers the ball deep in the punt returners terrritory. The Punt returning team obviously doesn’t want the other team to have the ball, so they choose to invoke the illegal touching rule to gain possesion of the ball. The problem is where to they get it. The guy it touched in the endzone, but it doesn’t really coun’t as having touched it in the endzone because of statement 1.
So do they pretend that he did touch it in the endzone, even though the situation says he never did, and give them a touchback? do they give it to the returning team where the punt returner grabbed it, that would not be according to any rule? Do they say it was never ‘technically’ touched by a coverer, and therefore is a fumble? I’ve never seen it happen but wonder what would happen. If you need me to clarify what I’m talking about I’ll try.
First of all, statements one and two only apply in the NFL. In college and high school football, once the ball crosses the plain of the goal line, it’s considered to be in the end zone.
Now in the NFL, in the above situation, the ball would probably be marked at the point where the player who performed the illegal touching last was on the field. However, that’s a guess. The officials could also opt to move the ball back out to the 20.
You will need to find a full NFL rule book, which is hard to come by. The NCAA has its rule book online.
I must admit that in the situation you described the college rule makes a lot more sense.
This doesn’t seem to make sense. If the punt coverer never had control of the ball, it’s still a ball in play. If the punt returner grabs it and begins to take off with it, there has been a change of possession. If he fumbles, he fumbles.
I would be interested in seeing an NFL rule that indicates what I said above (which I think is an accurate description of what you described in scenario 2) is incorrect.
Statement two is correct. Any time the kicking team touches a ball past the line of scrimmage before the receiving team touches, it’s illegal touching. The receiving team then has three options: 1) take the result of the return, 2) take the ball where the illegal touching occurred, or 3) take the ball where it came to rest.
Touching the ball doesn’t mean you’ve stopped. The defense could touch the ball at the 5, but then see it roll into the end zone. Then it’s a touchback.
I have consulted the official NFL rule book on this one.
According to my interpretations of the rule on illegal touching, in the situation described in the OP, the end result would be a touchback, because the ball had already crossed the goal line.
When you see a player jump in the air and bat the ball back, he still has to touch the ball before it crosses the goal line. He is jumping because if he touches the ball in the field of play and he is behind the goal line, it’s an automatic touchback.
The difference between the college rule and the NFL rule is that college players are not allowed to jump in the air to bat the ball backwards on a punt to keep it from going in the end zone.
So, receiving team’s ball, 1st and 10 at their own 20.
Remember, kick-offs and punts are two different things and have two different sets of rules. A punting team may touch the ball at any time before the receiving team does, but only to make sure the receiving team cannot advance it. The punting team cannot claim the ball UNLESS a receiver has touched the ball and then lost it (a muff or fumble). If the ball merely hits the receiver anywhere on his body and then rolls loose, the punting team may recover it and take possession.
On kick-offs, the kicking team may touch AND claim the ball at any time after it was kicked PROVIDED the ball has traveled at least ten yards and has not gone out of bounds. (Remember on-side kicks?) This rule applies whether anyone on the receiving team has touched the ball or not.
BTW, the quick kick and the drop kick are still legal in the NFL; you just never see anyone do them anymore.
The quick kick is done by a back (usually the QB) who kicks from a normal position or the shotgun formation. If the defense is unprepared, there is no one to catch it, and, hopefully, the ball will bounce and roll the length of the field, pinning the opposition deep in its own territory.
The drop kick is a different way to kick field goals, in that it does not require someone to hold the ball for the kicker; HE holds it like a punter. The catch is that he must kick it on the fly after it has bounced off the ground! Believe it or not, this was the preferred method of kicking field goals for a number of years.
To be truly pedantic, a punt and a field goal attempt are referred to in the rules as “scrimmage kicks”. Kickoffs are “free kicks”.
There are two different sets of rules for these types of kicks.
BobT - now that you brought it up, and have a rule book around, what’s the difference then between a regular kickoff as a “free kick,” and the “free kick” that occurs after a safety?
Under the rules, could I punt on any kickoff? Or only on the free kick following a safety?
(I understand why they punt rather than kick on a free kick following the safety, just curious as to if the rules would allow a punt in place of a “normal” kickoff.)
In the NFL, the free kick after a safety is pretty much the same thing as a kickoff after a score. However, in the NFL you can either punt the ball or place kick. BUT, if you place kick, you can’t use a tee, you have to use a player to hold the ball on the ground, so teams almost always opt to punt.
In college football, the free kick after a safety is like a regular kickoff and the kicking team can use a tee.
Even rarer in the NFL only, is the fair catch kick. Any time a team successfully makes a fair catch after a punt, it can opt for a fair catch free kick. The offense gets to put the ball on a tee at the spot of the fair catch and then can attempt to kick a field goal. The defense can’t rush the kicker and attempt to block the kick. If the kick goes through the goal posts, three points. If you miss, the other team takes over at the spot of the kick
Maybe just to remind everyone of football’s roots in rugby, where the play you’ve described is not uncommon.
A “fair catch” in football is derived from “taking a mark” in rugby. If a player takes a mark and catches the ball cleanly, he is entitled to a free kick, unimpeded by the other team. Most of the time, the player taking a mark will just touch the ball to his toe and advance it by running or passing, but near the end of a close game and in the right field position, the player might decide that a quick 3 points (is it still 3?) might do the job.
Of course, if memory serves correctly, the kick must be a drop kick (as in football, it’s considered a play from “scrimmage”), but many good rugby players can hit dropkicks more accurately and from a wider range of angles and distances than most NFL punters or kickers.
I would imagine that the circumstances would be pretty rare, but I could see this happening in a game–suppose a team were tied or winning by three or less points but had to punt the ball away deep in their own territory. The receiving team could concievably fair catch the ball and attempt a tying or winning field goal without fear that the kick would be blocked.
Just to clarify a slight error I made (and I doubt anyone cares about), but on the fair catch free kick attempt for a field goal, the kicker does not get to use a tee. He has to kick the ball off the deck as it were.
I’ve seen this play only once. It’s almost always at the end of the first half when a team gets off a short punt that gives the other team decent field position (usually around the 35-40). A coach will chance a 45-55 yard field goal attempt at this time.
A smart coach would have his punter kick the ball along the ground if he is worried about this. You have to catch a punt in the air to make a fair catch.
I’m not sure jab1 is correct about the drop. I recall that Green Bay successfully made a drop kick about ten years ago, only to have the play nullified because the drop kick had been taken off the books the previous year.
I think the drop kick is still on the books, however I doubt that anyone has made a field goal this way. It is extremely hard to make a kick of that type with they way the football is shaped now. Footballs used to be rounder and would take more regular bounces. Take one now and drop out on the ground, it probably won’t bounce straight back up to you. Then try it with people running at you. Then try to kick it through goal posts.
If you can do that with an American football, hie yourself to an NFL camp and try out.
I found this section in the NFL Digest of Rules on its website.
I finally found a printed NFL rule book here at work. Dropkicks are still legal in the NFL, but they can only be taken from behind the line of scrimmage.
Doug Flutie was practicing taking them on the run because he thought it might be a way for a team to score a desperation field goal. A QB in the distant past could scramble for several yards and then try a dropkick field goal from anywhere on the field.
Sadly, those days are no more. If you want to see a drop kick, watch Burt Lancaster (or his stand-in) do it in “Jim Thorpe: All-American”
Hmmm. Maybe it’s those funny little rocks I’ve taken to smoking lately. In the meantime, I’ve found these references that show that BobT is most definitely not on crack:
"Can you fair catch a kick off, and if you can, has a Packer ever done it? Also, can you drop kick for a field goal? - Jschetter from Sheboygan, WI
[The Immortal] Lee Remmel - When you kick off, it’s a live football until you down the ball. You can catch the football and then down it, unlike a punt which you can fair catch. For punting there’s also an obscure rule: if you fair catch a punt in the last two minutes of the half, you can attempt a field goal from the spot of the fair catch, and the opposing team cannot defend the kick. In 1964, we fair caught a punt on the 48 yard line and we were allowed to attempt a field goal from 52 yards out (on the 48 yard line), and Paul Hornung made it. On your second question, yes, you can still drop kick a field goal. It’s academic though because there’s no drop kicker in the NFL that I know of - there hasn’t been for years."
December 21
NFL:
1941: Chicago Bears halfback Ray McLean is the last player to score on a drop kick in the NFL. The Bears are leading the New York Giants, 30-9, in the fourth quarter of the NFL championship game when Ken Kavanaugh returns a fumble 42 yards for a touchdown. As the last touch of humiliation, McLean boots the extra point on a drop kick, which has been out of vogue for a while.
McLean’s kick provides the last point in the Bears’ retaining the title with a 37-9 victory before only 13,341 fans in Chicago.
While it shouldn’t be confused with real American football, Arean Football encourages dropkicks by giving teams 4 points for a dropkick field goal and 2 points for a dropkick extra point.
However, it appears that none have ever been attempted.
I’m glad to see that the detox program has cured me of my crack addiction.
I’ve seen two, maybe three free kicks after fair catches in the last three years (one involved Dallas, I believe), and they were all at the end of the first half. The kicks were not made.
I recall a few quick kicks over the years, usually in games in very bad weather between two very bad teams when it is clear the game will be low-scoring and field position is important. I believe Randall Cunningham did it a few times, and I think Thiesman may have as well.
Finally, I’m a bit surprised no one has attempted a drop-kick. True, the ball is not as round as it used to be, but artificial turf provides a very flat surface off of which to bounce the ball, and it gives you another blocker. And, more importantly, there’s instant notoriety for any coach and kicker that give it a try at the end of a half, especially in a blowout…