Two NFL Football Q's from a Novice

[Jinx]

So, there were a few plays in last night’s Ravens game that I did not understand. Maybe someone can explain since I have no one to ask.

a) I believe in the 3rd Q, the Jets punted. As the ball followed its downward trajectory, the ball might have brushed a Ravens’ shoulder. (It was tough to say.) The ball dropped to the ground and a Jet quickly tackled the loose ball. The local officials appealed to NY officials who ruled the ball did not touch the Raven player. So, what all happened here?

Based on this the ruling, didn’t the Jet who tackled the ball claim possession of a loose ball for the Jets? Yet, the Ravens were given possession of the ball. Now, consider if the ruling had gone the other way: Had the ball touched the Raven, wouldn’t that equate to the Ravens touching the ball and therefore taking possession of the ball? (As you can tell, I am weak on the finer points of the game.)

b) At some point in the second half, on an ordinary play with the Jets on offense, the QB threw the ball to a receiver who caught the ball, and he proceeded to run. But, he soon lost his footing, fell to the ground, rolled in a crouch (as I recall), and attempted to rise and keep running (if only for a step or two). But, once he touches the ground, isn’t that the end of the play? Can he get up and keep running, or was he hoping the refs didn’t see?

c) I do not understand the advantage of the onside kick. The Jets did this twice, back to back in the 4th Q, if I recall correctly. It seems the offense kicked the ball (in a low kick) down field to push the opposing team down field, right? But, is it possible for a Jets receiver to outrun the kick to claim possession of the ball? And, why / when is it worth forfeiting the typical four downs for this maneuver?

Thanks in advance, football fans!

[kenobi_65]

Quick answers:

a) When a team punts the ball, they may not regain possession of the ball on that play unless the ball first touches a member of the receiving team.

If the ball had, indeed, touched a Raven, the Jets could have recovered the ball – though they would not have been able to advance the ball; it would have been a dead ball at that spot, and the Jets would have regained possession, with a new first down at that point.

But, as a Raven had not touched the ball, when a Jets player grabbed the ball, that, too, caused a dead ball at that spot…but, that simply ended the punt play, and the Ravens gained possession at that spot.

b) In the NFL, if a ballcarrier winds up on the ground, as long as he isn’t actually touched by a member of the other team while he is on the ground (or contact with an opposing player had forced him to the ground), he isn’t “down,” and can get back up and continue running.

Note that this is different from, say, college ball – in college football, if a ballcarrier goes to the ground, that ends the play, even if he was not touched.

c) The “advantage” of the onside kick is to give the kicking team a chance to recover the ball. On a kickoff, the kick is a live ball, and members of either team may recover it. Even if the ball is kicked 60+ yards downfield (as it usually is on a kickoff), members of the kicking team could recover the ball – though, realistically, there’s no way that they would be able to run 60 yards downfield in time.

Onside kicks are nearly always attempted late in a game, by a team that’s behind, in order to try to regain possession of the ball, and thus try to score again. The odds of their success aren’t very high (historically, about 20%), though, with rules changes that the NFL made in order to make kickoffs safer, they’re even harder to recover now.

Also, just FYI, on an onside kick, the kicking team may not attempt to recover the ball until it’s traveled at least 10 yards, though the receiving team can recover it at any point. So, usually, when you see an onside kick, the kicker isn’t trying to kick it much further than 10 yards – he’s trying to put it in a place where his teammates have a chance to recover it before the other team can.

And, yes, you’re right, if the onside kick fails (that is, if the receiving team recovers the kick), the kicking team has probably just given the other team very good field position. That’s why it’s not attempted often unless the kicking team is in dire straits.

[Velocity]

@kenobi_65

Even if the ball is kicked 60+ yards downfield (as it usually is on a kickoff), members of the kicking team could recover the ball – though, realistically, there’s no way that they would be able to run 60 yards downfield in time.

This has happened a couple of times before in the NFL, both times because of a mental error by the receiving team.

First time was a few years ago, Bills-Jets game. The Jets kicked the ball deep downfield but the Bills, for whatever reason, just stared at the ball bouncing about on the field for a few moments without doing anything. Then suddenly realization hit them and they tried to grab the ball but it was too late, a Jets player had already snatched it by then. It was in the Bills’ end zone, so it was a touchdown, I believe.

Second time, also a few years ago; Cowboys-Eagles. The Cowboys kicked the ball deep downfield but the Eagles’ kick returner just watched the ball bounce (there seemed to be some confusion between two Eagles as to which of them was supposed to take the ball) and the Cowboys were able to arrive downfield by then and get possession at the Eagles’ 15-yard line.

[kenobi_65]

@Velocity

This has happened a couple of times before in the NFL, both times because of a mental error by the receiving team.

Exactly. Every once in a while, one sees the kickoff returner suffer a brain fart, and forget that it’s a live ball (unlike on a punt).

[Velocity]

@kenobi_65

Exactly. Every once in a while, one sees the kickoff returner suffer a brain fart, and forget that it’s a live ball (unlike on a punt).

Depending on the kickoff, the returner might also be waiting and hoping that the ball will bounce out of bounds, which would give the receiving team possession at the 40, but the ball then fails to cooperate.

[bernardch]

a. In a punting situation, if the receiving team does not cleanly field the ball or if the ball inadvertently touches a member of the receiving team, the ball is considered a live ball and either team can recover it. The Jets player pounced on the ball because he thought it had touched a Ravens player.

The other reason a member of the kicking team would recover the ball is if the punt bounced on the turf (without the receiving team touching it) and the bounce caused the ball to move towards the kicking teams goal line. In this case the kicking team “downs” the ball and the receiving team takes possession where the kicking team touches/downs it.

b. In the NFL a player is only down as a result of contact by an opposing player. If a ball carrier trips and falls and is never touched by a defender, they may get up and continue to run. There are some exceptions to protect quarterbacks. This is different than college ball in a player is down when either a knee or any other part of the body except a hand touches the turf. There is no down by contact in college ball.

c. In any kickoff situation the ball becomes a live ball after it has travelled 10 yards; either team can recover. The idea behind an inside kuck is to block members of the receiving team and/or have members of the kicking team beat the receivers to the ball and recover it after it traveled 10.0001 yards.

[russian_heel]

With the NFL onsides kick advantage reduced to 10% I predict some kicker is going to come up with some sort of end-to-end knuckleball kick that can be squibbed slightly further down the field than an onside. The idea is it will be difficult for the receiving team to handle increasing the likelihood of bobbles, weird bounces and fumbles that can possibly be recovered by the kicking team, down the field further, to boot.

This would force the receiving team, not knowing if they are getting an onsides kick or this “wobble” kick to adjust accordingly, allowing the kicking team of possibly sneaking in an onsides kick now and then.

The NFL adjusts its rules, innovators eventually find a way to make up for it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kenobi_65]

@russian_heel

With the NFL onsides kick advantage reduced to 10% I predict some kicker is going to come up with some sort of end-to-end knuckleball kick that can be squibbed slightly further down the field than an onside. The idea is it will be difficult for the receiving team to handle increasing the likelihood of bobbles, weird bounces and fumbles that can possibly be recovered by the kicking team, down the field further, to boot.

This would force the receiving team, not knowing if they are getting an onsides kick or this “wobble” kick to adjust accordingly, allowing the kicking team of possibly sneaking in an onsides kick now and then.

The NFL adjusts its rules, innovators eventually find a way to make up for it.

I agree; someone (either a kicker or a special teams coach) will figure out a strategy to improve the now-terrible odds for onside kicks. They aren’t meant to be easy to convert, but I think everyone realizes that the current conversion percentage is simply too low. If no one innovates their way into a solution, the league may tweak the kickoff rules again.

[Xema]

@kenobi_65

In the NFL, if a ballcarrier winds up on the ground …

In the interests of precision, it’s worth noting the NFL’s wording:

@NFL Rules

If, after contact by an opponent, any part of a runner’s leg above the ankle or any part of his arm above the wrist touches the ground, the runner is down.

(Which raises this question: would a runner who was knocked onto his butt, then bounced to his feet not be down? Or is the butt for these purposes considered part of a leg?)

[kenobi_65]

@Xema

(Which raises this question: would a runner who was knocked onto his butt, then bounced to his feet not be down? Or is the butt for these purposes considered part of a leg?)

Butt, back, hip, chest, and head would all also count as being down. I think that the rule you quote above is to make it clear that if your hand (or, of course, your feet) touch the ground, that doesn’t qualify as being “down.”

[Little_Nemo]

@bernardch

In the NFL a player is only down as a result of contact by an opposing player.

I thought there was a rule that said a player can intentionally go to ground and end the play, even if no opposing player has touched him. It’s rarely used but in some situations it’s better to end the play and guarantee possession of the ball rather than try to keep moving and take a chance of losing possession.

[Velocity]

@Little_Nemo

I thought there was a rule that said a player can intentionally go to ground and end the play, even if no opposing player has touched him. It’s rarely used but in some situations it’s better to end the play and guarantee possession of the ball rather than try to keep moving and take a chance of losing possession.

Yeah, defenders do this sometimes after having intercepted a ball; they’ll slide to the turf. (see Packers safety in 2014 NFC title game against Seattle, Colts cornerback in 2006 AFC title game against New England).

And, of course, quarterbacks take a knee all the time.

[kenobi_65]

@Velocity

Yeah, defenders do this sometimes after having intercepted a ball; they’ll slide to the turf. (see Packers safety in 2014 NFC title game against Seattle, Colts cornerback in 2006 AFC title game against New England).

And, of course, quarterbacks take a knee all the time.

Yup. If a player intentionally takes a knee, or otherwise clearly intentionally gives himself up and goes to the ground, the play is blown dead.

[Atamasama]

@kenobi_65

Onside kicks are nearly always attempted late in a game, by a team that’s behind, in order to try to regain possession of the ball, and thus try to score again. The odds of their success aren’t very high (historically, about 20%), though, with rules changes that the NFL made in order to make kickoffs safer, they’re even harder to recover now.

Unless you’re Younghoe Koo and can recover it every time.

Atlanta Falcons Kicker Masters Lost Art of the Onside Kick

If only he could kick field goals.

[Robot_Arm]

@bernardch

c. In any kickoff situation the ball becomes a live ball after it has travelled 10 yards; either team can recover.

Is the kickoff a live ball as soon as it goes ten yards, or does it have to touch the ground first, too? Onside kicks are always along the ground, with the hope that they’ll take a high bounce so the kicking team can recover. I always wondered why no team tried a kick that would go high in the air (like a chip shot in golf) so they could get in position to catch it before it came down.

[kenobi_65]

@Robot_Arm

Is the kickoff a live ball as soon as it goes ten yards, or does it have to touch the ground first, too?

It’s a bit more nuanced than that:

• For the receiving team, it’s a live ball, and can be recovered, from the moment it’s kicked.
• For the kicking team, while it’s a live ball the moment it’s kicked, they cannot legally recover the ball until it’s traveled upfield 10 yards – that is, if it’s kicked from the 35 yard line, the offense cannot legally recover the ball until it reaches the 45 yard line.
• The ball is “live” once it’s kicked, and does not have to touch the ground to become live.

And, onside kicks aren’t necessarily always on the ground, though that’s typical (with, as you note, the kicking team usually trying for a big hop into the air). Another strategy for onside kicks is for the kicker to pop the ball up into the air, just a bit longer than 10 yards downfield, with the hopes that a teammate can run under it and snatch it out of the air before a member of the receiving team can.

[kenobi_65]

@kenobi_65

• For the receiving team, it’s a live ball, and can be recovered, from the moment it’s kicked.

Too late to edit:

Note that this means that, although the receiving team can be no closer than 10 yards from the yard line from which the ball is kicked up until the moment of the kick, they do not need to stay that far back. They can, and do, move forward once the ball is kicked, and they can recover the ball before it travels 10 yards.

Also: the reason the “bouncing on the ground” onside kick has become the norm is, I think, because it’s harder to place a kick in the air (the “chip shot”) where you want it, without it going out of bounds, which gives the receiving team the ball at that point.

[RealityChuck]

@Robot_Arm

Is the kickoff a live ball as soon as it goes ten yards, or does it have to touch the ground first, too? Onside kicks are always along the ground, with the hope that they’ll take a high bounce so the kicking team can recover. I always wondered why no team tried a kick that would go high in the air (like a chip shot in golf) so they could get in position to catch it before it came down.

I did see an instance where the kicking team grabbed the ball in the air. It was called back because it had only gone nine yards, but you could possible manage it with the right kicker kicking at an angle and a fast runner.

[Velocity]

@Robot_Arm

I always wondered why no team tried a kick that would go high in the air (like a chip shot in golf) so they could get in position to catch it before it came down.

Ohio State did exactly that in its game against Maryland last month. It was about as perfectly executed by the kicker as could be.

(Skip to 00:43 for the best view of it)

[OldGuy]

@kenobi_65

Also: the reason the “bouncing on the ground” onside kick has become the norm is, I think, because it’s harder to place a kick in the air (the “chip shot”) where you want it, without it going out of bounds, which gives the receiving team the ball at that point.

I don’t believe this to be true. According to Wiki, the receiving team may call for a fair catch on a kickoff. (Fair catch - Wikipedia) I know not to trust Wiki completely, but this one seems so specific I do believe it. Therefore if the kicker tries to pop the ball into the air, a receiver could signal for a fair catch and no one on the kicking team would be allowed to catch the ball in the air “interfering with the fair catch”.

A fair catch no longer applies once the ball hits the ground. I believe that is the reason the ball is usually bounced. In the incident cited in the Ohio State game, probably nobody signaled for a fair catch. They should have if gaining possession was of primary importance.