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Team A has the ball. It’s 3rd and 10. Team A advances the ball past the LOS and fumbles. The ball is recovered by Team B. Team B then fumbles during the subsequent legal return, and Team A recovers the ball 5 yards behind the original LOS. Is it now Team A’s ball, 1st and 10, or 4th and 15?
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Goal line. Receiver’s route takes him fully into the end zone. QB throws the ball to him near the pylon. Receiver makes a legal, in-bounds catch right at the pylon and falls out of bounds. The ball never actually crosses the plane of the goal line. Is it a touchdown?
No. Only the ball matters. Some part of the ball must break the plane of the goal line while in legal possession of a player of the appropriate team.
If I’m reading this right, 1st and 10:
#2 could be very subjective from a ref’s POV. If the ref thinks the ball touched the pylon while in the possession of the receiver, he would rule a TD and then the replay official would need to see specific evidence of otherwise to overturn the TD call. So, despite what a rulebook might specifically say, a judgement call by one or more individuals in the real world might still make a wrong call and have it stick. Look at the similar example of the Dez Bryant “catch” in last year’s playoffs. YMMV big time, or a very specific rule wording might negate my post.
Sure, but I think “assuming the ref makes the right call” is pretty implicit in these sorts of discussions.
In that case, no TD. But real games, even with refined rules, sometimes tend to flow differently than we would expect from a dry reading of the rulebook.
That’s the way I understood it. The double turnover is what coaches fear when they see a tackle pick up a fumble and run with it.
Does it depend on exactly when the ball is ruled dead? Suppose the receiver is angling toward the sideline; his feet are inbound, in the end zone, he catches the ball outside the end zone and it passes outside the pylon. But the play isn’t dead yet; the receiver hasn’t touched the sideline, and he hasn’t yet touched his knee to the ground. Can the ball still cross the extended goal line (and count as a touchdown) as long as it happens before the whistle.
For that matter, how about an analogous situation with a runner carrying the ball toward the end zone pylon? The ball passes outside the pylon, but crosses the plane before the runner is ruled down; is that a touchdown?
I felt that was the case, but it just feels wrong to me to reward a team that has screwed up with a new set of downs, just because the other team happened to also be inept on that particular play.
It’s the change of possession that counts. The defense becomes the offense and has the opportunity to move the ball and score points, just like in a kick or punt return. If they don’t score and hold on to the ball they’ll get four new downs themselves. If the original offense gets the ball back it’s a whole new drive.
When the ball doesn’t travel far it is a big advantage for the original offense that started the play. But if the defense takes the ball away and heads far down field before coughing it up the offense could be left with a ridiculous 4th and 50 or more situation giving the defense an advantage after they’ve just been inept themselves.
As for scenario #2, I ask because I’ve seen this appear to happen at least a couple of times, for example, this catch by Stevie Johnson vs the Eagles from early last season. The video does not show an angle looking down the goal line, and the official is watching right down the line, and I’m sure it was reviewed, but from the angles provided it’s at least extremely close to the ball not actually crossing the goal line.
I’ve watched that video dozens of times and I’m really not seeing how it’s possible that the ball crossed the goal line. He’s right at the corner when he makes the catch, catching the ball with his arms fully extended, and he clearly lands well outside the end zone (the ball hits the ground just short of the orange 1st down arrow, which is a bit more than a yard from the goal line). I know it doesn’t matter where he lands, but just look where he is, when the ball hits his hands, with his arms fully extended, and his momentum, not to mention the defender pushing, carries him out of the end zone.
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For years, it used to be explained that the plane extended from the pylons, around the globe to other pylon, in addition to between the pylons on the field. Last year, maybe year before, commentators talked about that having changed in some way, but I’m not a rules maven. If someone has the newest info, I would be happy to adjust my long held understanding.
This is true. What’s kind of weird is that it’s a dead ball when a runner steps out of bounds, regardless of where the ball is.
Goal line (between the pylons anyways) is part of the field of play, tho. Step off of the field of play and your play is stopped. Even without the ball, there are rules concerning going out of bounds and coming back in to affect an active play. Around the goal line is the only place this gets weird to me.
I’ve heard that too, but haven’t noticed it change recently. I guess the root of my question is where is the ball spotted when a player goes out of bounds; is it where he last stepped in bounds, where he first stepped out of bounds, where the ball was when he touched out of bounds, etc.? And whatever the rule is, is it consistent with awarding a touchdown or is there an additional requirement (like the ball crossing over the pylon)?
Does it seem as if the recent clarifications (or nit-picking) of the rules is a consequence of allowing replay reviews? Now that the refs can use high-def, slow-mo video to make a call, they really do need to define what it means to catch the ball. Seems like no matter how precise the definitions are, there will still be those calls that are right on the edge.
Yes. That was my point in post 4. Real games may have something that doesn’t seem to quite fit the rulebook definitions. But, it’s still fun to talk about this stuff.
But why isn’t it a dead ball when the ball itself crosses the plane of the playing field (i.e. the out of bounds sideline)? If the ball remains inside the confines of the playing field but the runner’s shoestring flops down on the sideline chalk, it’s a dead ball. Why not apply the same concept as to the end zone where the ball has to cross the sideline plane?
The obvious reason is that it’s about impossible for an official to judge that while watching a player burn down the sideline. I just always thought it strange that a touchdown depends on ball location and out of bounds depends on the player’s body location.
What if the ball passes around the pylon on the outside side, but the receiver (whose feet are on the ground in bounds inside the end zone) reaches out and pulls it in? The ball never passed through the in-bounds portion of the goal plane, but it still ends up in the end zone in possession of the receiver.
What if it’s the same situation, except that the receiver has to jump to catch the ball? His feet are off the ground when he catches the ball. The last place he touched the ground before the catch was in bounds, and he lands out of bounds.
What if the ball itself doesn’t pass back in bounds, but the receiver who’s in-bounds catches it and then goes down with the ball firmly in his control, but out of bounds?
The rules seem to indicate that the goal line is still “extended”; that is, the ball doesn’t need to pass over the in-bounds portion of the goal line, merely be in legal possession of a player who is in bounds, while being on or beyond the plane.
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That one is easy, incomplete pass. The pass isn’t complete until until the receiver’s feet touch the ground. You can now catch a receiver who leaps for the ball and literally carry him out of the end zone before his feet hit the ground - result is an incomplete pass. It wasn’t the case a few years ago and I’m not sure why they changed the rule about being pushed/carried out of bounds.