Lynndie England, you make me sick to my stomach

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I literally feel sick: “It was just for fun.” “We were doing our job.”

I’ve never in my life been ashamed to be an American. But I’m ashamed you are an American. You have dishonored the uniform you wear and the flag you were supposed to serve. You have also ensured that the public face of American stupidity and disrespect is the face of a woman – and believe me, certain sections of the Middle East are not likely to forget that. If there was a way to apologize to those poor men, to the country of Iraq, to the whole Arab world, to the whole world, I would do it.

It breaks my hear that the country I love could somehow give birth to you and your friends – a group of people so entirely lacking in common sense and common decency. May God forgive you, because I never will.

Why the fuck are you ranting about England? Of course she’s a disgusting human being, but the real blame lies with those who ordered her to do it, ie her military superiors, and those who created the situation and the atmosphere that made this possible, from the senior officers who were supposed to supervise, to the Pentagon and the White House.

You say that “of course she’s a disgusting human being,” but then wonder why the fuck I’m ranting about her? Because she’s a disgusting human being! She’s a disgrace. I think there’s plenty of “real blame” to go around, but first, last, and always, it belongs to the contemptible grinning fool holding the leash.

Much as I am tempted to believe that, there was a piece on tonight’s ABC News, in which it was mentioned that when initially interviewed by investigators, England said virtually nothing about having been ordered to do what she did. In light of the fact that “I was following orders” would have been her best defense, her failure even to mention it casts things in a little different light.

I agree about the situation created by the higher-ups - they certainly need to be bitch-slapped about the whole mess (or even better, voted out of office) - but it’s sounding less and less like England was actually ordered to engage is this travesty.

yep, no shortage of blame here. and yes indeed Ms. England and her friends deserve a heaping portion (though I’d really like to see a good amount saved for the SOBs who not only engineered this, but are leaving the others out to dry ).

What really got to me, though was the nimrod (I believe its’ the father of Lynndie’s baby) who in civilian life was a fucking prison guard and is bleating “I didn’t get proper training”. as if perhaps, in civilian life it’s okey dokey to strip prisoners nekkid and take pictures of them for your friends, pose them in sexual poses and all. (not even getting into the ‘more, much more’ that is yet to come according to Rumsfeld)

This is what I thought was going to happen; sure she’s contemptible but she’s not the only one who did it. I’m not saying she’s worthy of any less scorn or that she’s at all absolvable, but by focusing all the attention on her there is less disgust for the other people that committed acts just as bad, ordered those acts done, or presented an environment where assholes like her and the soldiers around her would up doing what they did.

This is just crap, IMO. Who said she’s the only one who did it? She is the current object of attention because she’s the one currently being court-marshalled. Why is there then automatically “less disgust” for the other people?

I don’t understand the mentality that there’s just only so much disgust and blame to go around, so we better ration it out, and if I point out what a waste of carbon she is, I must therefore think others are not as bad. Every single person who was involved in these incidents, or even know they were occurring and failed to act, deserves nothing but contempt. I’m personally more dismayed by her involvement because she’s female and her atrocious conduct can (and probably will) be held up as by at least some as reason why women cannot be placed in positions of authority, and why it’s best to keep them veiled and in the house so they don’t turn out like this American nightmare of womanhood. But that aspect is beyond her control; her on conduct was not.

I’m not going to jump on the “Lynndie England is a horrible monster!” bandwagon. Don’t get me wrong–she did something wrong, and she should be punished, but given the environment those soldiers were placed in I believe a lot of perfectly normal people would have (and did) participate in the prisoner abuse. I can’t say for sure what I would have done in that environment.

This seems topical.

The Stanley Milgram experiment is also applicable, I’d say.
http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm

No, it doesn’t excuse her in any way. But I’m sure there’s a lot of folks that condemn her who’d do the same thing in her place.

Not only that, but she has ruined the “thumbs-up” sign. Everytime I do it, I feel I should have a prisoner’s genitals in front of me.

Strangely, that’s very close to resembling my first “I never thought it would happen to me” letter to Rough Trade

I’m not astonished that she’s sick. I knew that before. What astonishes me is that she’s so dense. Yeah, the photos worked, at making the entire country hate you and blow your comrades up with increased frequency. Is that what you meant to do? Then it worked very well.

Shameful as England’s behavior might be, I feel like a sap piling on the bandwagon about her. It seems to me that she’s being used as a scapegoat, along with the other grunts: “Pay no attention to these important personages behind the curtain! Focus ALL your attention on the horrible, terrible Private England, a young female who went oh, so far astray!”

Meanwhile, Bush, Rummy and the gang hide behind the curtain and snicker at our gullibility.

Or, being human beings and not carictures, maybe they feel guilty that their lack of foresight created the environment that fostered this mess.

You can’t say for sure that if you were in that environment, you wouldn’t have stripped prisoners naked, tied them up, put bags over their heads, put them in pyramids, put them on boxes and tied things to their genitals, and posed for pictures while pointing and laughing?

Nice. Glad to hear that everyone has such a solid grasp on the most basic concepts of personal integrity and human decency.

All this talk about “I was only following orders” and “it’s the institution that does things to people” is bullshit of the highest order. Is she the only person to blame? Hardly. Were her actions, as well as those of the other people involved, still completely and totally reprehensible? Obviously. Or at least, it should be obvious, if everyone in this country hadn’t already gone so completely insane.

And no, a biased and unethical experiment designed from the start to attack prisons ("I got the idea for the mirrored sunglasses from Cool Hand Luke! :rolleyes: ) does nothing to change that.

I believe the nimrod in question is Spc. Graner.

You’re only gullible if you insist on believing that these people were innocent pawns in the evil machinations of their superiors. Everybody on every level is responsible. Just because someone is possibly being used as a scapegoat doesn’t absolve them of any blame.

I cannot disagree with Jodi. This woman is a contemptible chunk of stool. Before we withhold forgiveness, consider the following:

She’s a young, naive, scared little girl in a far away land that happens to be a combat zone. She’s had exactly six weeks of MP training, and hours, not days, hours of POW training, and less time if any in the psychological aspects of interrogation.

She obviously is not being supervised.

There is little doubt that the mission was to extract as much information as possible to gain intelligence that might save an American soldier’s life. Remember, this is a war zone.

Her boyfriend civilian prison guard has an equal amount of POW training.

Mob mentality can be predicted in a situation like this.

These are the only assholes caught on film. I assure you, there are much more heinous acts being done over there we aren’t seeing. The stories of boys being raped and assassinations in the presence of our forces comes to mind.

Yup, throw the fucking book at her. Just make sure that for once, the shit rolls uphill. All the way to the top would suit me just fine.

If I was teleported into that prison while the events were occuring, I would have recoiled in horror and done everything in my limited power to end it.

But, if I joined the military because I wanted to help my country, was taught that the best way to help my country was to follow orders, was told that I’d be liberating a grateful country and instead found out that I was hated and despised, was given a great deal of authority over the very people who despised me–hell, they’re probably in the prison for trying to kill people like me!–and thought that helping the intelligence officers would stop attacks on my family back home? Well, I don’t know what I’d do then. I’d like to think I’d be a courageous whistle blower, but I likely wouldn’t be.

I think empathy is necessary for both integrity and decency.

But fear and hatred don’t excuse barbaric behavior; they don’t even explain it. The best you’ve able to come up with makes it sound like it was done out of revenge. If you truly believe in what you’re fighting for, then you are able to recognize that debasing and humiliating other people isn’t it.

But these prisoners were murderers and rapists and hated her and other soldiers just for being an American! Yeah, and there’s a reason why murdering and raping people is frowned upon. It’s not because they were Iraqi and the soliders were American, it’s because there are things that human beings just don’t do to each other. No matter what the situation is.

I think you’d be better off saving your empathy for someone who deserves it. Instead of someone whose best defense is “it was all in fun.” That sure as hell doesn’t sound to me like someone who was pressured to do what she did out of fear for her life and her family’s life.