I’ve been doing some thinking, and haven’t come to any hard and fast conclusions myself, so here goes:
Are song lyrics poetry? Is there a distinct difference that makes one not be the other? Where do you draw the line, if there is one?
I’ve written both, and while I think I’m convinced that there is a difference, I can’t put my finger on precisely what. But, on the other hand, I’d also consider most song lyrics to be poetry. So what do you think?
I think the difference is that lyrics are meant to accompany music. So, lyrics could be very, very good as lyrics, but would lose everything if printed and bound. Of course, the categories overlap, and some lyrics would be perfectly fine printed and bound as poetry, just like, for instance, a play can be read as a book.
Song lyrics can be poetry, but they certainly don’t have to be. However, I admit that my judgment is more qualitative than quantitative. Song lyrics usually do have some kind of meter, and in a strict sense may qualify them as poetry. However, for me, good lyrics are poetry and bad ones are just doggerel. 
Consider the following.
[/quote]
If my fist clenches, crack it open
Before I use it and lose my cool.
When I smile, tell me some bad news
Before I laugh, and act like a fool.
If I swallow anything evil,
Put your finger down my throat.
If I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat.
[/quote]
These lyrics, from Behind Blue Eyes by The Who, are pure poetry. This song has some of the greatest lyrics of any song I have ever heard.
And consider the following, from Nitro(Youth Energy) by Offspring
This is untreated sewage.
So the bottom line, at least for me, is the old adage “I don’t know what it is, but I know it when I see it.”
MR
I would also add: Not all poetry (perhaps not most) would make a good lyric. Poetry can sound akward put to music, or it could be gilding the lily, as a good poem should really stand on it’s own.
I think the play/novel analogy is a good one. Lyrics are a componant of a greater whole. Poetry should be the whole.
I don’t agree with that analogy at all. Virtually all poetry in the ancient and medieval worlds was set to music. It is not surpising that the term, lyric, refers to the lyre. Lyrics certainly can stand alone if they are written skillfully enough, and only have to be “part of a greater whole,” as it were, if they are not masterfully done.
MR
Okay, added question - is there added benefit to a hunk of words being one or the other - that is, lyrics or poetry? Are we more forgiving as of one or the other?
If it’s bad, it’s bad. It makes no difference to me whether it tries to pass itself off as poetry or prose.
One word: Jewel.
Two more: Jim Morrison.
'Nuff said?
honestly? no.
Are you saying that poery and lyrics ARE the same thing or not? Jim Morrison I can agree with, but Jewel?
Have you ever seen that MTV interview where kurt loder makes a point of the fact that she uses the word Casualty to describe a person who acts casually about something. She used the incorrect word just so it fit the rhyme scheme. Cracks me up everytime I see the interview. She gets really upset.
I suppose to some it’s poetry she does, to me it’s garbage. Actually the same goes for her music.
In the ancient and medieval world. Yes, the question would be different in a pre-literate/partially literate society. (And yes, I know you could make a case for 2000 America being a partially literate society. But…) if we’re talking about a literate society, poetry is not normally declaimed, but read. And it’s the current distinction I think we’re talking about.
See, I’m not saying lyrics are bad poetry that need music to prop them up. I’m saying lyrics are words intended to be melded to music, and poetry is intended to stand alone- and one is not better than the other, necessarily, any more than plays are inferior to novels for requiring a stage and actors.
I’m totally paraphrasing this, and I can’t remember the source, but I’ll go ahead. . . I read this interview with Paul Simon where he said something like “99 percent of song lyrics are insipid and banal. That’s why when someone like me or Dylan comes along, everyone praises us as these fantastic poets, when really we’re just good compared to the other stuff that’s out there.”
And I agree. I can only think of a few songs that would be passable as poetry (and most of them are Simon or Dylan). I’m not ragging on songwriters here; I have great amounts of respect for the talents of Van Morrison, Pete Townsend, Carole King, etc., but good poetry (Seamus Heaney, CK Williams, Claire Bateman) really can’t be compared to even the best of songs.
I’m sorry if I sound like a big snob. I’m really not, I just feel that comparing song lyrics to poems is a little presumptious.
I guess I’m more interested in today, rather than Mid-Ages.
my instinctive response is to go with betenoir. I can see where you’re coming from, ThisYearsGirl, and I’d agree that lots of song lyrics aren’t good poetry, but in the same vein, lots of poetry isn’t good poetry.
But I was referring to “good poetry”–meaning talented professional poets, in the same way that there are talented professional song writers.
Writing good song lyrics is a different skill from writing poetry.
And there are very few good rock music lyricists – Dylan, Simon, Morrison, Billy Joel, Loudon Wainwright III, and Keith Reid are the only ones offhand that really stand out. But they don’t hold a candle to Ira Gershwin, Cole Porter, Oscar Hammerstein II, Frank Loesser, Al Dubin, Frederick Lowe, Adler and Ross, and, God help me, even Stephen Sondheim (who writes lousy songs with good lyrics).
But even the best are a far cry from poetry.
There is no doubt that Lyrics are a form of poetry. What must be noted is that Lyrics, as an artistic medium, are not required to stand alone outside of music. It’s okay for lyrics not to be good enough to stand alone, because the music makes up for their deficiencies. Lyrical poetry, which is poetry that is written to have musical qualities, must stand alone, though it could be set to music.
Obviously, there are a lot of empty lyrics in music. But even talented lyricists like Tom Waits often don’t say anything that makes sense read straight. The music binds the words, makes them coherent, lends them the sound of sense.
It is not a requirement of song lyrics to stand alone as poetry. Yet, it is no great flaw either.