Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown

[Natlaw]

And if you claim because you think you get lynched, don’t do it in the last hours before the lynch, but earlier. Even if it is a confirmable role like a mason, not everyone might be online to move their votes. Late (non confirmable) claims are seen as scum trying to save their hides afaik.
Note that a second mason doesn’t have to claim right away, as long has he claims sometime (when only two masons left or when it most useful to come out to reduce the scum hiding pool).

And speaking of masons, these first votes flying around remind me of Evil Dead, were the masons all voted for a scum who voted for mason Pleonast on the first Day. I didn’t notice it, but another scum picked out all masons out right then on scum board.

Looking at the the Simpletown game, everyone random voted Day One, but that is I think that is now frowned upon as it makes it easy for scum. But that does means the reasons are sometimes a bit stretched for town as well. The way I see it at the moment is that Hero wanted a quick vote to start conversation with Oredigger and Seeker biting.

[special_ed]

@pedescribe

@ok11

If you’re asking whether the scum can false claim to be masons, then yes. They can claim to have any role, but claiming mason is probably the riskiest move. If there are real masons in the game, the scum masons will get counterclaimed, and then the town will test and catch the scum (if not right away, then the next Day).

If you’re asking whether it’s possible for one of the masons to actually be a scum player in disguise, the answer is also yes. Basically, one of the masons could be a traitor. But in that case, the masons should probably have some sort of hint in their PM that not all of them are pro-town. I haven’t read any games with this type of role, but I would imagine that as long as the masons see something like “pro-town” or “town-aligned” or “innocent” in their PMs, then they don’t have to worry about trusting each other.

And this role is rarely used, because it tends t make everything very messy.

I can’t believe YOU are the one to say it rarely happens. Yeah…very messy

[paulwhoisaghost]

@special_ed

I can’t believe YOU are the one to say it rarely happens. Yeah…very messy

Yeah… messy… lots of Gettysburg addresses and wikipedia articles and whatnot involved…

[paulwhoisaghost]

@MentalGuy

As I said earlier, this is my first game, so I have several questions. My apologies if some of these things should be obvious and I am just overlooking it.

I have been thinking about Masons (if there are not any in the game, then I have really been wasting my time). First question, is it possible that their could be an assassin masquerading as a Mason?

I realize that Masons might have special reasons for keeping themselves secret, such as an exclusive win condition or having the ability to communicate with each other. If, though, the only thing special about them is they know who each other are, is there any reason they should not publicly declare and confirm each other. That would at least remove a small group of players from the lynching pool, making the odds of lynching an assassin better. Like I said, I am a newbie and there is probably something I am overlooking.

Also, you should try to ask the Mod these kinds of questions through PM. Reason being, either you are good at creating WiFoM or you just eliminated yourself from the list of possible masons.

[MentalGuy]

@paulwhoisaghost

Also, you should try to ask the Mod these kinds of questions through PM. Reason being, either you are good at creating WiFoM or you just eliminated yourself from the list of possible masons.

What is WiFoM?

Also, I figured since we are being given so little information about what roles even exist, I would just receive a noncommittal answer from the mod. This was just an assumption on my part, though, and you are right, I probably should have at least tried that first.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@special_ed

I can’t believe YOU are the one to say it rarely happens. Yeah…very messy

It’s true. Over half of the roles in that game* were designed to be experimental…that particular one blew up in my face.

*In which Ed was a scum mason.

[paulwhoisaghost]

@MentalGuy

What is WiFoM?

Also, I figured since we are being given so little information about what roles even exist, I would just receive a noncommittal answer from the mod. This was just an assumption on my part, though, and you are right, I probably should have at least tried that first.

WiFoM = Wine in Front of Me

Reference to Princess Bride. Part in the movie with a sicilian and a battle of the wits involving two goblets, one of the goblets contains a poison. The challenge is to figure out which goblet contains the poison and drink from the other one.

“Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’ve made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder’s origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re just stalling now.
Vizzini: You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? You’ve beaten my giant, which means you’re exceptionally strong, so you could’ve put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you’ve also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re trying to trick me into giving away something. It won’t work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU’VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don’t see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let’s drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That’s what’s so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…”

[paulwhoisaghost]

Anything more than that from the movie ruins the metaphor and cheapens the movie experience

[straggler]

Is it common in these Mafia games for people to start racing their votes in on the most flimsy of reasoning?

I don’t know whether what I’m seeing so far is:

• Carefully thought out strategy
• Impatience
• Naive newbie error
• An over-estimation of one’s ability to identify wolves

In the only other game of Mafia that I have observed (the Split game), a couple of early votes for a user called november snowballed in to a landslide lynching of an innocent townie. november’s crime was to have a low post count, and this was wrongly perceived as suspicious. I saw the whole thing as people wanting to save their own skin, instead of thinking about what was best for the town.

Whatever we do, let’s avoid early pile-on landslides. We win as the town, right? Not as individuals? Carelessly tossing out early lynch votes plays straight in to the wolves’ hands. Instead, we should be forming sensible voting blocs against those who show genuine discrepancies and inconsistencies.

As a newbie, one thing has occurred to me:

What if all of us townies agreed to withhold our lynch votes until the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We immediately fire our lynch votes, and lock them in, at the first person to break the rule. Even if the first lynch turns up townie, the lesson will be learned and the mistake will not be repeated. This will allow us to successfully gain control of when the wolves can vote, stifling their ability to cause the early pile-on nonsense from the Split game.

Another thing: Assuming we went with the above strategy, what if us townies all agreed to have made our lynch vote decision prior to the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We all then stick with our vote, no matter what pile-on nonsense is developing in the thread. One of two things will then happen:

*** A townie gets lynched**

• The wolves, knowing that the townie votes will probably be split across many people, vote as a bloc to kill off a townie, or:
• Individual townies, acting independently of each other, all wrongly identify an innocent townie as a wolf.

I think option 2 is unlikely, and we can then focus our suspicion on those who voted to lynch the townie.

*** A wolf gets lynched**

• Success!

Is there any sense in my strategy? Or are these types of wild ideas just common but long-discredited newbie attempts at intelligent Mafia strategy?

[Hero_From_Sector_7G]

@Natlaw

I see it at the moment is that Hero wanted a quick vote to start conversation with Oredigger and Seeker biting.

Pretty much yeah. I thought we were playing Mafia.

The easiest place for scum to hide is in the “adviser” role. They don’t lurk, they don’t vote, but they comment on the game and give advice that is often good. They appear active and pro-town but their lack of commitment doesn’t piss anyone off and they can keep a low profile.

Right now I see a lot of this going on. New players: once this game started, a decent percentage of the players are going to lie to you. Stop asking for advice here. Go to www.mafiascum.net and read other games. Read the noob advice there. You should keep a notepad and put players names in there and jot down your thoughts. If you rely on others to hunt out scum you are going to lose, and weren’t even playing anyhow.

Day one is a crapshoot, true. However, Mafia is a game of information, and day one is good for getting information. There is too much noise right now and some of the more experienced players appear way too eager to indulge.

Some interesting stuff has happened! Comment on it! Make a vote! Start playing the game you signed up for!

[Seeker_of_Truth_and_Beauty]

@Hero_From_Sector_7G

Pretty much yeah. I thought we were playing Mafia.

<snip>

See what you get for thinking?

[MentalGuy]

@straggler

As a newbie, one thing has occurred to me:

What if all of us townies agreed to withhold our lynch votes until the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We immediately fire our lynch votes, and lock them in, at the first person to break the rule. Even if the first lynch turns up townie, the lesson will be learned and the mistake will not be repeated. This will allow us to successfully gain control of when the wolves can vote, stifling their ability to cause the early pile-on nonsense from the Split game.

Straggler, I believe this is a bad idea. Early accusals and votes are pretty much a crap shoot, and can only be based on the slimmest of evidence. They do however, give us a chance to see how people respond to them, and votes can be changed. By withholding votes until the end, you are losing information I believe. Also, I believe locking in votes would give too much power to the wolves since they can talk during the Day.

I am holding off voting for a bit, but Straggler, I think you have become one of my top suspects.

[Sitnam]

It can only help town if people talk more and it seems to me that people talk more when there are more accusations flying, since I have no read at all yet, I’ll random vote for now but will switch it if I see something I don’t like.

vote rexnervous

A question for the more experienced players, what are the standard first day strategy decisions usually asked? What do players discuss other than:

Do we vote for a mayor to tie break?
Do we agree to lynch all liars?

[Hero_From_Sector_7G]

@straggler

Is there any sense in my strategy? Or are these types of wild ideas just common but long-discredited newbie attempts at intelligent Mafia strategy?

Mafia has not and can not be “solved.” There is no group strategy that can promise victory to either side.

Words can be twisted. Votes can not.

Voting is towns ONLY guaranteed mechanism to kill scum. Over time, scum cannot use their vote to kill their own (and win). Over time, voting will reveal scum.

I think this game is different than ones you are used to. It isn’t majority rules for a lynch, re-read the rules. It is a subtle difference but very scum biased if we keep the mentality that a majority is needed.

The other ways of hunting scum rely on our own personal beliefs of what scum do and how they post. I have my own methods, and you need to find your own. Talking about it isn’t as helpful as you think, as by design some people in this game are going to lie to you and try to mislead.

• A townie gets lynched

• The wolves, knowing that the townie votes will probably be split across many people, vote as a bloc to kill off a townie, or:
• Individual townies, acting independently of each other, all wrongly identify an innocent townie as a wolf.

I think option 2 is unlikely, and we can then focus our suspicion on those who voted to lynch the townie.

Mistakes will be made. Discouraging voting through fear of making a mistake is anti town.

[ok11]

I think I spotted the first perfect information slip:

@MentalGuy

Also, I believe locking in votes would give too much power to the wolves since they can talk during the Day.

How do you know wolves can talk during the Day? Who says we’re playing against wolves?

vote MentalGuy

[straggler]

@ok11

Who says we’re playing against wolves?

What would be the purpose of the game if we’re all townies? (Genuine question).

[Natlaw]

@Hero_From_Sector_7G

The easiest place for scum to hide is in the “adviser” role. They don’t lurk, they don’t vote, but they comment on the game and give advice that is often good. They appear active and pro-town but their lack of commitment doesn’t piss anyone off and they can keep a low profile.

Right now I see a lot of this going on. New players: once this game started, a decent percentage of the players are going to lie to you. Stop asking for advice here. Go to www.mafiascum.net and read other games. Read the noob advice there. You should keep a notepad and put players names in there and jot down your thoughts. If you rely on others to hunt out scum you are going to lose, and weren’t even playing anyhow.

You right that that is a valid scum tactic, but that doesn’t mean advice shouldn’t be posted here. Good advice is good advice, asking questions isn’t bad, proposing plans isn’t either and they can contain clues, even if it’s just strategy talk (eg you voted Pleonast because a experienced player like him shouldn’t have calculated mislynches).

@Sitnam

It can only help town if people talk more and it seems to me that people talk more when there are more accusations flying, since I have no read at all yet, I’ll random vote for now but will switch it if I see something I don’t like.

vote rexnervous

A question for the more experienced players, what are the standard first day strategy decisions usually asked? What do players discuss other than:

Do we vote for a mayor to tie break?
Do we agree to lynch all liars?

The argument against a random vote is that it isn’t an accusation - it a role of the die and therefore doesn’t really get discussion (expect about random voting ;)).
Since a tie is a random lynch (between those we created it and sachertorte didn’t really answer who that are), do you mean the mayor always move his vote when there is a tie? I don’t think that is gonna work until there is a confirmed town.
I don’t think it is a good idea to lynch the liars/lurkers/loud as a rule, better to decide on a case by case basis. That said, the liar better has a good explanation and someone else to confirm he is now telling the truth.

[Natlaw]

@ok11

Who says we’re playing against wolves?

Well, he was responding to straggler who was talking about wolves as well. So why aren’t you voting for him?

The mafia/scum/wolves faction in Simpletown were called ‘assassins’ - but that is just color (different names, same role to put some variation in the game, plus I bet our mod likes to send PMs to people with ‘You are a Simpleton’ :p).

[ok11]

@straggler

What would be the purpose of the game if we’re all townies? (Genuine question).

Trust me, I realize that there are scum out there. But what makes you think they’re wolves? After all, the original Simpletown game was Simpletons vs. Assassins. I don’t think we’ve been told what kind of scum we’re facing this time. My assumption is that so far, only people who got scum PMs know whether they’re mafia, assassins, wolves, or whatever they may be.
Natlaw, I didn’t vote for straggler because I can’t vote for 2 people at the same time. I’m mainly suspicious of MentalGuy because he said scum can talk during the Day. The “wolves” thing is secondary.

[rexnervous]

@Sitnam

It can only help town if people talk more and it seems to me that people talk more when there are more accusations flying, since I have no read at all yet, I’ll random vote for now but will switch it if I see something I don’t like.

vote rexnervous

A question for the more experienced players, what are the standard first day strategy decisions usually asked? What do players discuss other than:

Do we vote for a mayor to tie break?
Do we agree to lynch all liars?

Oh goodie. A pure random vote against me.

I don’t have any real complaint against this, actually, since we’re operating on virtually no information. I guess in my limited experience there are pros and cons regarding random vote, and I’m not going to get into it here since I don’t have a real opinion either way.

I’m not going to random vote (yet) though myself, because (well, on second thought I guess I do have an opinion after all too many random votes is just noise.

But I need to catch up on all this talk about masons and people on different boards in multiple games and voting for mayors. This is already way more complicated than the Werewolf game I’m in (with exception of the Testerizer there).