Mafia: Simpletown

The point is, you use his discussion of the detective as a reason to vote for him, but then you go on later to talk about it like maybe it’s not such a scum tell. You’re trying to have it both ways, and you can’t.

Exactly, it’s a coincidence. If he’s scum, then you’re right. But what if he’s town and what he said is true, how’s he suppose to defend himself. You’re looking entirely at the action and ignoring any motivation. Seriously, do you think a scum is sitting there, merely reading the board at 8:40 PM, panics, and HAS to respond right away? Trying to deduce motivation from timing just doesn’t make sense.

And even if you ARE right that he’s lurking, you’re ASSUMING that lurking is necessarily a scum tell. Another classic newbie power role tell is lurking, being afraid to post anything, because you’re afraid you’ll give away extra information. So, even if you ARE right, you’ve not put forth any sort of information to differentiate scummy lurking, from power role lurking, or even simple intimidated vanilla townie lurking. Even if you are right that he panicked and had to respond, it could just as easily be a power role trying to prevent himself from being lynched as a scum trying to prevent himself from being lynched.

Finally, and this is directed to pedescribe, if, per chance, you are fabricating your busy schedule, shame on you. I think using real life reasons, or making them up, to avoid suspicion is very much outside the spirit of the game. As such, I’d tend to believe he was telling the truth, especially when there’s a sudden change like that. Real life DOES get in the way sometimes, and no one should be using it as either an excuse to generate suspicion or avoid it.

You’re missing the point here. You disagree with NAF’s reasoning again here. The point is, credit IS important. A good example of this is when Idle Thoughts changed his vote to lynch Kat in MV when both were scum. He gained a lot of townie cred that he used to almost get away with a mason claim later (and probably would have if MHaye didn’t have additional information). By being able to assign credit to yourself, if he shows up scum, you can go “See! I told you!” and if he turns up town, you can adjust the blame to NAF and point out where you disagree with him. You’re setting it up so you can either get townie cred if the town likes the lynch or avoid suspicion if we think it was scummy.

Swapping votes is not scummy, we’re all going to do it. What matters is the manner in which you swapped the vote. You were driving his lynch for most of the Day on some pretty wishy-washy evidence, but you’re quick to change it when you see an opportunity to justify a change. The other point is, the justification for that vote, in and of itself, is flimsy precisely because you set yourself up to have it either way.

Uh huh… nice try. :wink:

You, of ALL people, should know this isn’t true. In fact, it’s YOUR behavior as scum that I’ve used to explain this point to other people. Remember when you were scum in M3, your neck was ready to be stretched, and you didn’t really try to defend yourself at all. Instead, you presented a WIFOM case against SnakesCatLady, that kept the town distracted for Days, and ultimately led to her lynch. Or how about in the recruitment game you moderated where I wanted to save myself, but I obviously couldn’t do it at the expense of the Boss. Saying some will and **should] try harder to get off the hook is patently false and YOU know better than that. The motivation for self-preservation is approximately equal, so assigning ANY sort of greater scumminess to it is deliberately misleading.

When did threatening players who disagree with you become acceptable? This game seems to opperate under a different set of rules than the games I have played before. People don’t have to justify votes and an argument is the basis for a de facto FOS.

Strange.

Less than an hour to go.

Again, I am pro-town.
Even if pedescribe is town,which I hope he isn’t,I believe I can help us more than he will.

As I said before, Fluiddruid, I was not really responding to you. I was planning to read the thread since I had last posted, then post my thoughts (like last time). As I was scrolling up, I noticed–because of the blue–Ice Cream Man’s vote for me. I read from there, noticed your direct question, and decided it was so important I had to drop everything and respond thouroughly. Now I see that was a mistake.

As I’ve said before, what can I do to convince you? Or are you going to ignore everything after that and hound me, like Diomedes did faithfool? Like him, I am town.

Oh, and–since I forgot:
unvote zuma
vote Sitnam

This vote makes me feel a bit more comfortable.Seems like an attempt to distance himself from being tied to my lynch.

NO. This is unacceptable. We’ve already discussed how dangerous, how irresponsible, and how scummy voting without explanation is, and I won’t have it. Even if all of the other evidence is flimsy (which it’s not, some of it is, but Mad is very suspicious), this post alone is incredibly scummy.

Not only is he not giving an explanation for his vote, he’s siding with the guy who’s leading his bandwagon, who he’s shouted blue in the face with, against someone for God knows what reason.

Fluiddruid, until you rise to my challenge, you are my number-two suspicion, but I can’t not

Unvote Sitnam
Vote Madtheswine

Guess not :wink:

Definately expected.

OK, I’ve got what I hope is a solid contribution now.

Rather than try to evaluate the case against each player, which would have taken forever, I decided to analyze Day 1 voting patterns with an eye to how each vote and unvote helped and hurt other players. The particular formula I used I may reveal later.

The results of my analysis suggest that four players operated as a team on Day 1 to shift the voting away from fluiddruid and onto Menocchio:

fluiddruid
peekercpa
Nanook of the North Shore
zuma (or if not him then MadTheSwine)

I suspect all our Mafia are in this list. In light of this, I would like to shift my vote to a player whose scumminess I am more sure of, but at this point all I would be doing is possibly saving MadTheSwine and hanging pedescribe, of whom I have no suspicions. So I’ll leave my vote where it is.

It’s perfectly acceptable if you’re Mafia . . .

You’re even more right about this than you think you are. In the rules, it says that if a player is mod-killed for not posting, it will be done “with no public indication of role or alignment”. So if someone gets removed we get no information at all!

Well,I can’t wait any longer,

I think some of you have picked up on it,since I left plenty of crumbs,but I AM THE DETECTIVE.

I investigated ShadowFacts last Night and got a town result.

I disagree. Ultimately there is always a better reason for a Town person to accept a lynch than a scum player. When you are scum, it is simply a numbers game (barring unusual rule sets) - you want to keep the most players the longest. Townies have very different motivations. YOU of all people should know this.

Townies are most interested in information. Lives are expendable. (More lives, less information)

Scum are most interested in lives. Gaining information is expendable. (Fewer information, more lives)

Now, I think you’re blowing what I said way out of proportion. As I said, all players want to stay in the game and, yes, of course, every Town player knows 100% they are town. That’s fine. But you still haven’t touched the core of my argument. This is why you’re coming across to me as somewhat scummy. In the case of pedescribe, you ignored my argument and wanted to talk about what I said and how I said it. The same is applying here and you’re ignoring my argument - that MadTheSwine should not vote without explanation or comment. Do you really want to argue that this argument is false? No, so you’re trying to move the discussion in a different direction. Whether or not you’re willfully mischaracterizing what I said is debatable, but again, you’re taking my simple (and easily observed) comment that scum’s lives are more precious to them than townies and making it into that I have some grand case against MadTheSwine voting for pederast - when in fact I said no such thing!

In regards to your specific comments about M3, heck, I was doing what I thought would get me off the hook without incriminating my team. I felt bad about getting lynched so early so I tried to do what I could to damage Town. I was a much less experienced player then and I didn’t seriously consider a role-claim because I, frankly, did not feel that I could pull it off. And regarding the recruitment game, well, you were pretty flatly hosed regardless and I think you knew it. And, heck, we saw the Detective vote for themselves in that game, and from what I could tell, quite sincerely! If that’s not a good argument for the fact that scum self-preserves more, I don’t know what is.

Again, though, I don’t think what he did was a scum tell. That’s why I didn’t say that it was. I was responding to Ice Cream Man, a (presumably) new player, about his analysis and my thoughts on it.

I didn’t threaten him. I said he was starting to ping my scumdar and he is - now that he’s posted again, I’ll state more clearly that it’s because he’s ignoring key parts of my responses, picking out bits and ripping them to pieces.

People do not have to justify votes. But, it’s pro-Town that they do. Everything in the thread that is already posted is history. It’s fact. You can squirm and squirm and it won’t change something that’s already been said. That’s why we need to get people to post (a point nobody argues with) and what is more important to post than why they are voting the way they do?

To exaggerate your question, do you think it would be better for Town or for Scum if nobody posted anything but their votes – no explanations? Of course, that’s pro-scum. The more you say, the more you can screw up. As more roles are revealed, it’s too easy to let people change the potential reasoning behind their vote to get off the hook. If you believe someone’s argument, fine, say so! It’s not scummy to be wrong.

I know how you (presumably) feel, I always feel the same way when I play vanilla Town. It’s frustrating because you have no role to claim.

I don’t mean to hound you. I am simply defending myself because people are trying to make me out for being scum for voting for you. I could be wrong and you’re town - the odds are you ARE town, same as for Mad. But, I’m going with my best impulse and my best impulse says you’re more likely to be scum than Mad. There’s nothing you can do to convince me otherwise than to keep playing or to find a better candidate.

Why oh why would you wait until NOW to claim? It’s almost certainly too late to save yourself. Damn it.

Unvote MadtheSwine

I’m very short on time before the end of the Day (work went long), so I won’t be able to analyze Mennochio’s voting in time. Luckily someone has for me:

I have had suspicions about fluiddruid all Day because of the two lynch argument. Which is flawed. As Blam said, One lynch and one modkill is not two lynches, and as I said, two lynches is not two kills. I think fluiddruid has been manipulative, and put suspicion on Menocchio that lead to his killing as WF says above.

So:

Vote fluiddruid

I know it will have no effect today, but as many veteran players have said, its important to be on record. So I now am on record. I think the main arguments involving BOTH MTS and pedescribe are largely OMGUS so I won’t go there.

gah, I need to preview to see who else is posting already at times like these. Two posts came in while I was composing mine.

Well. Damn. If you’re telling the truth, then that really sucks for us. If you’re lying, then I’m likely to go down with you. Sad to say that I hope the latter is true.

I guess it goes without saying that if there are protective roles in play… use 'em tonight. Fuck.

Well by my count, it’s currently 5 for Mad and 4 for Pedescribe. Since ties result in a random lynch, I’m not sure what the best decision here is. I think I believe Mad’s claim, so even though I don’t really believe necessarily that pedescribe is scum, I would rather lynch a vanilla than a detective.

Vote Pedescribe

Well I’m dead anyway,guess it don’t really matter. Just hoping pedescribe is scum so i don’t go out in complete failure.