Magic The Gathering Discussion

Sadly no, because he’d love playing today. Tooth and Nail would give him an instant hardon. :smiley:

However, he gave it up for EverQuest about four years back.

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Not me, then; I wasn’t online until early 1999.

Actually, it was Asheron’s Call. :slight_smile:

And there are plenty of cards released since he left that’d he’d love, everything from Avatar of Might to Silvos, Rogue Elemental. Shame, really. :smiley:

Magic is for shit these days. In my day we had creature abilites that made sense in a magical world, like Phasing and First Strike. Now I see these cards and I think they must be really reaching to come up with any new abilities, cause they’re all stupid. It only serves to take the magical atmosphere out of the game and bog it down in legalistic semantics.

Wait, you complain about “legalistic semantics,” but you hold up the rules nightmare that is phasing as an example of a great ability?!

Methinks you’re incorrect in this department. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, ED '99 was when I was first in college. You used to post under your real name though…unless there are two floating around. That’s probably the year exactly. Anyway:

I hated phasing. I hated shadow. I hated that every deck was built to take out an opponent in the first 2-3 turns. That’s just card drawing, not knowledge or ability. I may as well play craps or roulette.

I don’t think that I would not have been fond of morph either.

I think that Wakefield missed a lot if he quit when I did. Can’t believe that Ashernon’s Call did that though. Now that I think about it, I remember a couple of his old Dojo articles that mentioned he had found some really cool computer game. Sad really.

Phasing could be a pain in the ass, but compared to the new abilities, however, it was as easy as chewing gum without all the hastle of walking,

What really sets it apart is that it MADE SENSE in the game world, which new ones don’t. These abilities that let you discard cards so you can pick up new cards, all it does is remind me I’m playing a stupid CARD GAME. And if I want to do that, I might as well play Hearts.

You’re kidding, right? Next you’ll be saying that banding was exquisitely simple AND useful. :wink:

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Funny you should choose that kind of ability as an example, as the first card of that type was introduced in Legends, which is hardly a “new” set. And I’d say a lot of new abiliies have a relevance that many old ones didn’t. Certainly, a lot more thought goes into it these days - they care a lot more about this sort of consistency, as opposed to the times when you could just slap terms and abilities anywhere anyhow.

And I would’ve thought that handling card would remind you that you were playing a card game. :wink:

But to each his own, I guess.

Name one new (say from Urza’s Saga onwards) ability more complicated than phasing.

So you don’t want to play a card game? I hope I’m not being nosy, but why do it then?

You’re thinking of Recall, which by his lights wuold have flavour. He’s talking about cycling.

Of course, if we want to talk flavour it should be pointed out that the mechanics of Magic haven’t fitted with the idea of being a planeswalker at any time ever. For instance, why would a super-powered wizard only be able to recall his spells at random?

Morph. “Whadda you mean it doesn’t use the stack!?!”

Enjoy,
Steven
(Who played Morph before Morph was cool)

That is the one complex thing about morph. One. Phasing has… what, nineteen last count?

Gah…morph is easy to understand, but I don’t like the fact that there is a card on the table that I don’t know about. Instants are one thing, but a morph can’t really be accounted for.

I liked cycling even though I never used it much (I stopped playing just before it got big.)

Phasing, not that bad, but more confusing than useful. Teferi’s Veil was a fun card though.

Phasing also has a much longer history than Morph and many of the rules surrounding it reflect the flux of the rules versus the actual complexity of the mechanic. How the mechanic interacted with the various rules and zones as the rules evolved has affected it quite a bit. When it was first introduced it was reasonably simple. As a legacy ability based on rules assumptions which are no longer valid, it takes a bit of massaging to work correctly. In the Official Comprehensive Rulebook the heading 5.15 - Phasing: has 14 sub-sections. Individual rules about Phasing. Some of them are rightly related to the complexity of the mechanic, and some were just there to drive the point home because some people just didn’t get it. For instance

Anyone see this as being a rule necessary because phasing is complex? This was put into place because phasing was around before the “untap step” was codified in the 6th ed rules and this rule was necessary to bring the mechanic into line with the new turn sequence rules. A lot of the complexity associated with Phasing, a seperate out-of-play zone for “phased” permanents, a seperate “step” in a step which normally doesn’t have much going on in it, etc, are artifacts of rule changes which had to accomodate the legacy mechanic, not the mechanic itself. Take a look at the Illusionary Mask. The current wording makes it look and work simple enough. The rules attached to it go back to 1994. The accumulation of rules attached to the card represent the evolution of the game, not anything particularly weird about the card itself.

The fledgling ability Morph has six sub-sections of the rules dedicated to it as well as a section in the main rules entitled “face down cards”(although part of this was due to the Mask and Camoflauge). When 98th edition rules roll around people will look back at Morph and think everyone must have been on crack. At least that is my prediction.

Enjoy,
Steven

Seems to me that when phasing first came in it actvated the “comes into play” effects of phasing permanents (a rule that was later changed, and made phasing just dumb.) I had a whole deck that was based on phasing. It had Thalakos seers and sage owls and Nekkratals and such that had good comes into play abilities.

When that rule went out the window, so did the usefulness of phasing as I saw it.

I’ve only been playing for about a year now, so I’m pretty new, but I love MtG, but am a bit stuck on some of the rules… So if anyone could help me out here I’d be really grateful.

I have a Mirrodin Blue/Black deck, new got it last week or something, but I love it, and was wondering how I would get in touch with some friendlyn newbie-tournaments. Looking for a bit of coaching too, but just whoever, whenever really:)


…long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence – Don McLean

I can understand if you’re playing a tournament phasing would probably caused some problems, but then again in tournaments there’s always somebody bitching about something he thinks the rules don’t cover. Playing with friends it was never a issue. I still maintain that the new abilities are stupid contrivances. Not really an issue since I ‘ve only played a few games with friends’ decks since Tempest.

If you’ve got Usenet access, there’s no place better than rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules. Lurk for a week or two, then ask your questions.

You can also read the newsgroup’s FAQ (maintained by little old me and now freakishly out of date (I am working on it, I promise) but it still contains valuable information) at www.claymore.nu/mtgrules.

A lot of D’Angelo’s rulings summaries are outdated now, but they still help a lot of people.

Finally, you can always email me any specific questions. I’m a level 2 judge and spent a couple of years as a Usenet rules guru.

Wow, Magic - this thread brought back a whole of memories.

I got into it in…'93/94 I think - 3rd was just going out, Ice Age was just coming in. And I was pretty well addicted for a good few years, last set I bought was Visions, no idea when that was.

Never played seriously, just a whole bunch of mates having a laugh. Started off with a Red/White COP/Blasts deck, but soon discovered how dull (yet staggeringly effective) this was, then started playing loads of Blue, due to it having all the silly ‘wtf?’ cards (at the time, anyway). My favourite ever deck was probably the multicoloured Dragon deck I made - fairly impractical, only really playable in 4 or more player, but great fun if it worked. Loved the Black/White Angel deck I made as well (along with it’s sly Eternal Renewal - or whatever it’s called - infinite damage trick). We always played 60 card decks, clunky otherwise, I started to lose interest the first time I played against a Turbo-Stasis deck, and we all realised we’d have to really speed up our decks. Had an awesome mono-Black deck, all hippys and dark rituals etc.

I think that, after the amazing Alliances, the expansions seemed really dull, and I no longer had the spending urge. Which was very lucky. I’ve still got all my cards in a cupboard somewhere.

Someone help out the old geezer, here… What the heck is cycling? Does that mean that all your creatures can move at 21 different speeds? Or that if your enemy has a Wall of Caltrops that you have to stay tapped for a turn to change a flat tire? Phasing, meanwhile, I do know somewhat about, but it’s stupid. It’s treated like an “ability”, like it should give you some really nice advantage, when all it really means is that you can’t use your card half the time. Yet phasing creatures cost as much as or more than their non-phasing counterparts. Not quite as stupid as snow-covered lands (anybody remember those?), but close.

And contrary to what Leaper is implying, banding is, in fact, both simple and useful. It means your critters can gang up on your enemy’s critters. Or, if you want the full, complicated version, any group of attacking creatures can attack together if all but one have banding, and any group of defending creatures can block together if any of them has banding. In either case, the controller of the band assigns combat damage to the band. Three clauses… About the only thing simpler is flying.

And banding has, at times, won me the game. Once I was playing my green-white weenie deck against a friend’s all-green weenie deck. He was playing creatures at about twice the rate that I was, and had more to enhance them with, to boot. But thanks to my banding, I was killing three or four of his to each one of mine. Very effective ability, if you know how to use it properly… Which is as it should be. There’s supposed to be some element of skill in this game, isn’t there?

Cycling is an ability that cards have which allows the player to pay some mana, discard that card, and draw another card. Basically, if you don’t want that card right now, you can discard it and replcae it with another one. As an example, it’s handy on lands. Early in the game, you definitely want enough lands. But later on, they’re useless, so cycle them away, draw more cards.
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Cite? Your assertion is just plain untrue. Granted, phasing did basically suck. But creatures with phasing did, in fact, cost less than they would have had they not had phasing. To wit: Breezekeeper (4/4 for 3U), sandbar crocodile (6/5 for 4U), merfolk raiders (2/3 islandwalk for 1U).

The best use of phasing was not on cards which actually had the phasing ability, but on cards which could phase things out at will, most notably Rainbow Efreet, Frenetic Efreet, and Vodalian Illusionist.

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Snow covered lands are second only to bands-with-other in the pantheon of Useless Magic Mechanics.

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Wrong, wrong, and wrong. First of all, banding on attacking is totally different from banding on defense, in that banding on attacking has to be announced, whereas banding on defense just happens (when it’s time to assign damage). But the real problem is that there are all sorts of complicated questions involving banding, particularly related to what happens if one or more of the creatures with banding lose banding in the middle of combat, or cease to be attackers, or what have you.

Banding is one of my favorite mechanics, but to claim that it is simple is just nuts.
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And your point is?

I think magic cards today are more interesting, more flavorful, and better designed than they ever have been in the past.

Some good examples of recent cards:
Form of the Dragon, an enchantment which basically transforms the player into a dragon

Mindslaver, a legendary artifact which actually allows the caster to fully control his opponent’s next turn

Soul Foundry, an artifact which becomes a machine which manufactures copies of whatever creature you like, and its little brother Isochron Sceptre, an artifact which becomes a machine which casts copies of whatever cheap instant spell you like

Platinum Angel, a flying creature whose ability makes it literally impossible for you to lose

Akroma, Angel of Wrath, the best “big expensive creature” ever… WWW5 for 6/6 flying, haste, trample, first strike, non-tapping, pro-black, pro-red

Quicksilver Elemental is a creature which can copy the activated abilities of other creatures in play
And some of the recent mechanics:
Morph, as previously discussed in this thread, allows creatures to be played face down, harkening back to the old classic Illusionary Mask

Equipment is a new card type which thematically represents swords and shields… things which can be picked up and make your creatures better, but which can then be moved over to another creature when appropriate.

Double Strike is the long discussed ability which allows creatures to deal both first strike and regular damage
Magic has never been better.

Oh, and in response to Eternal:
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What kind of friends do you have with whom it’s OK for games to have vague rules? If a nekrataal phases out, and then phases in, does it destroy another creature? (the answer: no) Sure, when playing with friends there’s no money on the line, so it’s somewhat less of a big deal, but it’s still important as hell that games have clearly defined rules that actually answer questions about what happens in situations. And the rules of Magic are better and simpler than they ever have been before. (And I don’t mean “simpler” like “they took all the interesting things out” simpler. I mean simpler as in unified, structured, comprehensible, not-full-of-zillions-of-special-cases…)