Makah tribe hunting gray whales: tribal rights vs. the environment

Great Debates
1

I referenced something in another thread, but rather than hijack that one, I thought I should start a new one.

If you live in the Pacific Northwest, you’re definitely aware of the story. If you’re from elsewhere, you may not have heard of it. Here’s a recap:

Last year, the Makah Tribe (one of our official recognized Indian nations) decided to assert its right, granted by treaty, to hunt the gray whale. Here in the Pacific Northwest, many of our Indian cultures are based around the sea – salmon, whales, the orca, and so on – as opposed to the better-known “buffalo cultures” of the Great Plains. And the Makah, in an effort to recapture part of their history, sued and won the right to resume the hunt for the first time in decades.

This set off a huge uproar. The conventional political affiliations ended up fighting with each other, to wit:

The conservative side has been split in half. One faction, led by the unapologetically racist Senator Slade “Skeletor” Gorton, didn’t want to grant the Indians anything at all, and therefore opposed the hunt. However, others wanted to support the hunt, because they hold no truck with the environmental movement, and want to re-open the oceans to commercial exploitation. The old slippery slope suggests that if the Indians can hunt whales, then eventually big business can get back into it.

And the liberal side has been similarly split. On one side you’ve got the cultural apologists, who decry the trampling of the Red Man’s heritage, and believe that everything that has been taken from them should be returned, including the right to hunt whales. And meanwhile, you’ve got the granola environmentalists, who want to, you guessed it, save the whales.

Of course, the debate between liberal agendas has been far more vehement and acrimonious, so the conservatives, in a very intelligent move, have been hanging back, letting the lefties make fools of themselves.

And the spectacle, as I mentioned in the other thread, has been perversely amusing. Although the Makahs did manage to kill one whale last year, this year they’ve been coming up empty. That hasn’t stopped the protesters from invading their reservation, or from piloting their Greenpeace-wannabe boats out to where the Makahs are hunting and harassing the Indians. There was one recent incident where a white whale-protecting woman on a jet-ski came zooming in toward the Makahs’ boat, spraying them with water on the sharp turn; and when she spun around to zoom back out, she got run over by the Coast Guard boat that was protecting the Indians. She ended up with some broken bones and a hospital police guard.

Incidentally, I should mention here that the Makahs are using traditional methods to hunt the whales. They don’t have big boats, and they don’t have harpoon guns. They’re hunting from a hand-built wooden canoe, driven only by oar power, and they are hand-throwing their harpoons at the whales. So any argument about the Makahs using modern technology as an assist to their hunt, meaning this isn’t much of a throwback to traditional values, is invalid.

For background information, check out these links:

News:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/html98/maka_20000420.html
http://www.king5.com/detailtopstory.html?StoryID=705

Activists:
http://www.worldwhalepolice.org/

Here’s the problem: I honestly don’t know what to think of this. I feel like I should have an opinion (as if it matters), but I don’t know what side to come down on. I’m definitely left-leaning, but at the same time I’m both part Cherokee and part white.

So my internal argument goes like this:

Indian voice: We should have the right to reclaim our heritage.

White voice: Sure, but reclaim something else. Whales are struggling to survive as it is; we shouldn’t be hunting them at all.

Indian voice: That’s just another example of Whitey trying to tell us what’s best for us. We’ve been listening to that crap for 500 years, and look where it got us.

White voice: You don’t really need the whale. Food production is fairly advanced; you won’t starve without it. Besides, you can set a good example for the rest of us.

Indian voice: It’s not about the practical needs, it’s about the psychological/spiritual value of the thing. We should have the right to reclaim our heritage.

…And round and round she goes.

What do y’all make of this?

2

How are the gray whales doing, anyway? Is there any data to suggest that the actions of a few Indians using traditional techniques could render the gray whale extinct? If not, then I see no reason to forbid what they consider to be a major part of their culture.

3

Actually, the Grey Whale is doing just fine, thank you.

Unfortunately, a large number of them have been turning up dead lately, causes unknown.

Number actually killed by the Makah hunters, now in two full years of trying, zero.

I don’t see any problem in allowing them to hunt. Rather strict limits have been set on how many whales they can “harvest.” My philosophy on the whole ‘save the whales’ campaign has always been that if you want to give up every single animal made product, then you can complain. Otherwise, shut the heck up.

4

Yeah, the Native Americans have my vote. They have been doing it for over a thousand years. We almost wipe out the whale’s entire population in about a hundred. Now we’re telling them to stop? That is like saying “no easter eggs for easter. The chickens are kept against their will. You will not use them in your ceremonies, however long you have done it.” Okay, maybe not exactly, but you get my point. Whales die every day because of old age, nets, etc., and they wash up on beaches. No one uses the bodies. The Makah take one whale, and use all of it, and animal-rights activists are up in arms about it. Let them have their traditions. Besides, Greenpeace is a bunch of greedy capitalist thugs who only care about PR and the almighty Canadian dollar! :slight_smile:

5

I don’t fully understand how we believe we have the right to legislate their hunting practices. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Native American reservations are nations within our nation. I understand that they are U.S. territorial waters, but maybe the Native American population has the right to pursue their lives in a traditional way. This may relate more to the other thread, but if we as a culture have limited their means of existence from the beginning, shouldn’t we take responsibility for the legacy of our actions?? The Native American culture needs help in terms of education, job training and farming assistance. We pretty much screwed them ~400 years ago, and they haven’t recovered. We used the Marshall Plan to help Germany after World War II, so maybe we can act retroactively in this case.

6

Amerinds killing a Grey whale or two will not make a big difference in the environment. But, this will lead to MANY whales dying. Why? Because the @#$%& Japanese & Norwegians are using the Amerind hunting to justify THEIR whaling, and thus are setting back the stopping of commercial whaling by years if not decades. THAT is why the Amerinds should not hunt their whale-- they are setting a bad example & precedent. Think Globally, Guys! :smiley:

7

Hey, if they want to paddle out there in canoes and hand toss harpoons at the whales, I still have no problems.

I’m not a big conservationist in any case.

8

I have a problem with this. So if your grandfather hunted whales and was Indian then you can do it but if your grandfather hunted whales and You are white then you are out of luck?

My grandfather used leaded gas in his car all his life, why should I have to change?

If the indians are allowed to do the same things they have done for some hundred years (namely hunting whales) can the white man be allowed to do what he has done for some hundred years (namely hunting Indians)?

I cannot comprehend from any point of view why something is bad if I do it but it is good if someone else does it. The whole point of the American system was and should be that it does not matter who your ancestors were, you have the same rights and the same obligations as everybody else.

I am not sure if hunting whales is good or bad but it should not be a question answered by “it depends who is doing it”

Why can I not go out in a canoe and harpoon a whale? huh?

9

Pardon me if I’m mistaken, but I believe that what you “cannot comprehend” here is called tolerance.

10

Actually, they did get one last year.

http://archives.seattletimes.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=whal&date=19990517

11

>> Pardon me if I’m mistaken, but I believe that what you “cannot comprehend” here is called tolerance.

Mikan, you are mistaken and pardoned. I would define tolerance as respecting opinions I cannot comprehend and I do not think there was any disrespect in my post. Just a statement of my own incomprehension of certain facts. I do not understand how you can equate not sharing your opinion with lack of tolerance. They have nothing to do with each other.

12

Cervaise:

Ok, if by traditional you mean they have a support boat armed with a .50 calibre gun ready to blast the whale as soon as it is poked with the harpoon.

mikan:

How is he being intolerant? Because something is traditional does not make it right. I believe that killing whales is wrong and unnecessary. Is that intolerant?

The reservations are poor and native culture is being lost. Killing a whale is not going to bring back the glory days of the tribe. Working to revive the language, educating the children in their traditions, and bringing back traditional ceremonies are ways to improve the culture. Whaling is not a means to do this, IMO, and I will continue to oppose the Makah whale hunt.

13

If I remember right, the gray whales have been doing OK the past few years, with their numbers hovering around 17,000 to 20,000 (I don’t have a cite handy, but if you want it, I’ll go dig one up). With the exception of some ominous unexplained recent deaths, the whales are doing OK, and at the rate the Makah are going, they won’t make a dent.

The problem arises when others say “the Makah have the right to hunt whales, why don’t I?” like the Japanese (as Daniel mentioned), the Russians, Norwegians, etc.

The Makah are doing this more for assertion of their own distinctiveness than for the food, which makes me wonder if that’s really the best way to define and assert your culture: going and doing something that everyone else can’t and that would be seriosly harmful if everybody else did.

14

pre-rant: IF the NA’s were a separate country that we had never conquered, we would be doing everything in our power to stop them from killing whales or any other endangered species. Just imagine if the japanese were shooting bald eagles off the coast of Washington. Whoo boy we would be mad.
That said, IF they are using their crappy and inefficient techniques, Who the hell cares? The only downside is that a) some indians will die and b)there will be a lot of whales that will limp off to die from their wounds. I would bet they kill 10 for every one that they actual retrieve. But Gosh, if it makes them feel better, it is worth it, right?

Rant: What is the big freakin’ deal about “culture”? I do not know any Lithuanian folk dances, nor do I speak the language. If you came to me tomorrow and said, "Beaumont, I will give you .50 or I will give you a chance to practice Lituanian heritage" I would take the .50.

As to the quote above: Why the flip is it OK for any non-white group to engage in outrageous practices. Shouldn’t we have equality. After all, thta’s what the civil rights movement was about. But now you are saying “well, if you are a certain race, you can do whatever you want. But if you are this other race, then you can’t do it.”

Killing whales, drinking out of a certain water fountain…it is racist to determine right and wrong based on race. And that is exactly what the indian apologists are doing.

15

[QUOTE]
**
Cervaise:

Well, that’s a good question. If you feel that the way a certain cultural/ethnic community within the U.S. chooses to live and forge its own identity is wrong and unnecessary, even though that community is doing nothing which harms other people in society, then I would consider that a form of intolerance. Or at least, it leans more in the direction of intolerance than tolerance.

Just for the record, I am not advocating an all-out cultural or moral relativism. I am not saying that each and every “traditional” practice under the sun has to be looked upon with an attitude of tolerance. Female cirucumcision would be a good example. Still, despite all the complications surrounding the Makah case, I would rather leave it up to the Makah to decide for themselves whether or not whaling is an important enough part of their identity to pursue.

What really puzzles me about the Makah case is mainstream society’s emotional attachment to … whales!
I mean, ok, I’ve seen whales up close and think they’re pretty damn impressive animals, but how did they ever come to be so glorified and romanticized so as to become untouchable as a food source? What do people find so offensive about others nibbling on whale meat now and then? What prevents us from seeing whales as a variety of seafood, available for selective harvesting and consumption? Would people find it less repugnant if whales could somehow be commercially farmed, like cows, turkeys or salmon?

16

I don’t have numbers, but I always thought that whales had been hunted to near extinction, and that’s why people worked hard to save them. Their populations grew to the present size only after whaling was stopped by most countries. And yes, they are impressive; consider that the blue whale is the largest creature that ever lived …

I think it should be clear to those others who want to practice whaling that it might be the pyschological/spiritual aspect that is important to the Makah. I don’t know that, but it could be they aren’t just whaling for fun and profit like the other countries. I think there’s a similar debate going on in Wyoming over the buffalo and a tribe who wants to hunt them in Yellowstone.

Not that peoples shouldn’t consider their values in light of the world. I’m not saying they should give in to peer pressure, but they should understand why the rest of the world doesn’t whale. This argument could be applied to those who practice things like genital mutilation – they would do well to at least wonder why the rest of the world thinks they’re barbaric.

panama jack

“I was a bay man, like my father was before.
Can’t make a living as a bay man anymore …”

17

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply by that last post that I think the Makah whaling are barbaric; I was talking about the people who do genital mutilation.

My apologies to any Makah …

panama jack

“There ain’t much future for a man who works the sea
But there ain’t no island left for islanders like me.”

18

Lord Derfel:

Ok, if by traditional you mean they have a support boat armed with a .50 calibre gun ready to blast the whale as soon as it is poked with the harpoon.

Precisely where did you hear this?

If there were any evidence to suggest that the gray whale would be rendered extinct by the actions of the Makah, we would be justified in forbidding them from going on their whale hunts. However, from what I’ve heard, it seems this is not the case, seeing as they have been at it since 1998 and have only killed one whale.

I don’t have numbers, but I always thought that whales had been hunted to near extinction, and that’s why people worked hard to save them. Their populations grew to the present size only after whaling was stopped by most countries.

True, but AFAIK various cultures have been at it for centuries, and the “save the whales” campaign didn’t start until the late 20th century.

Interesting fact: In Japan, whale meat was once served in schools (before the “save the whales” campaign began).

19

From the Makah themselves: Makah Whaling Statement It’s in the section called “How Will The Makahs Hunt the Whale?”

20

Even though I may have my own opinion about whaling, that is not my point. My point is that if we are all equally equal then we should all be allowed the same rights and obligations. If we decide that X number of whales can be taken then those X number of licenses should be available to anyone and everyone (auction?) independent of whether your grandfather was indian, white, black or whatever.

What is this with culture? What is culture? Anything except what the white man does? White men in the last two centuries have killed more whales than all indians since time began so why can indians keep their culture and not others? Whaling is more “traditional” for some whites than it is for Indians.

A culture is not the property of any racial group and I find it very disturbing when people say this. If I think indian culture is good I should be allowed to be Indian just as Indians should be allowed to join mainstream American culture.

I feel very strongly about this because I follow what happens in China. When the Chinese government infringes on the human rights of individuals they often use the argument that human rights are a western concept with no application in China. I strongly disagree (and the Chinese dissidents are with me on this one). The concept of human rights may have originated in the west but all humankind are entitled to them.

Culture is not the property of the people who invented it. Bethoven is not the property of Europeans, his work is the property of all humankind.

Your rights should not depend on who your parents were.