So Gen. McCrystal is proposing getting the Taliban into peace talks. This seems to be an admission that this war is not winnable.
I expected this, as I reject the whole concept of “Nation Building”.
My question is, what is the effect of this on the US, British, or Nato soldiers on the ground? If I was an American soldier, I would not be too keen to risk my life, to fight people that I may wind up protecting.
It cannot be good for morale, but I guess Obama has realized that the American people are getting tired of endless war.
Do think we will be out by 2011?
It would depend on what the agreement was. Suppose the Taliban agreed (truthfully) to stop all attacks on the United States or other countries and cease any support for Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups. Would that a sign that we had lost the war? I don’t think we should be fighting on the principle that “as long as you exist there can never be peace between us”. We should be willing to explore the possibility that our enemies might come around to our position and we can stop fighting them.
Yea, I don’t think the Afghan war was ever sold as “we’ll wipe the Taliban from the face of the Earth”, so it hardly seems like a defeat to try and come to some sort of accord with them. Indeed, IIRC, Bush originally suggested that if the Taliban would be spared if they forked over the leadership of Al-Queda.
Thre process is as inevitable as it was in Iraq; you can beat them so you buy them off - bribe the insurgents to leave you alone. Fat monthy fee to the leaders, they pay a salary to their militia, militia stand around looking cool, the pressure is off westen politicians, everyone’s a winner - in the short term.
Just keep loading those pallets of newly minted bills so the CIA can ditribute them at the other end.
I think peace talks between the Taliban could work out in a Dan Brown novel but real life? Not so much. Taliban won’t be demanding for something benign as a Coca-Cola factory in Asad Abad; they will likely demand things that U.S can’t possibly give (e.g. Remove all troops froops from the Middle East, End all Support of Israel, Release all Gitmo detainees). I don’t think the U.S negotiates like that nor should we. We should still try though. Maybe they’ll demand something reasonable.
By 2011, we need to be out of Afghanistan. Warring with non-national entities is so last decade.
- Honesty.
The Taleban aren’t all bad. They originally became popular after freeing some child sex slaves from local warlords, they pretty much stamped out the drug trade for a while there and they twice offered to hand over bin Laden for trial, on the condition it take place in a Muslim country. I remember seeing “Langan Behind the Lines”, a BBC programme back in the nineties, in which him and the followers of bin Laden and company were trying to smuggle a camera in, seeing as those devices were banned by the Taleban.
However they’d probably want a share in power which I doubt the Americans would be willing to give.
How so?
Seems to me that it isn’t a loss if we achieve our goals through negotiation.
Do you take it as an axiom that negotiation is incompatable with our goals?
If that’s the case, can you please describe what you feel our goals are?
I think we should try every option available to the US and its allies in the region, including negotiation. It begs the question of how much support the Taliban truly gives to terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda though, and how many Taliban are not only sympathetic to Al-Qaeda but active members as well.
I question how we would be able to validate the keeping of any promises made by the Taliban in any agreement that might come about via negotiating with them. Maybe we could offer up Dick Cheney and see what they are willing to give up for the chance to behead him.
I don’t think the Taliban cares that much about what goes on in the rest of the world. With a few exceptions, I think their interests are pretty localized to their valley and maybe the next valley over. That’s been one of the big obstacles in this war, is in Afghanistan you can’t pitch it to the population a transnational struggle or Freedom vs Tyranny or a Just and Free Afghanistan, because 99% of them honestly do not give a shit about that. But address some obscure tribal concern and maybe some viagra bribe and you’ve got a winner, this week.
How do we know it will work? Better hand him over just to see. And if they give nothing in return? Better hand over Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz, and Yoo, just to be sure…
It is exactly what turned the tide in Iraq. Instead of trying to kill all the insurgents, we started paying them to lay down their arms. That is what McCrystal is proposing, since it worked so well in Iraq. Just pay our enemies to be our friends. So long as the taxpayers don’t mind, what could possibly go wrong?
I’ve been a proponent of this strategy since Cecil’s column.
The neo-cons and military were desperate after Vietnam. They had no enemies . They trumpeted China but they were not really much of a threat. They had an enemies vacuum. Then Saddam blundered in front of them. He was no threat to America but he was a rallying point they could not pass up. They are doing their best to demonize Iran now, but they again are not much of a threat. They will have a hard time making Afghanistan or Yemen into a new and dangerous enemy. But they will try. It is way past time for America to gain control over the military. They keep making shit up .
The Taliban has no designs on the outside world. They are local war lords and a shards of a broken and corrupt government. It is past time to stop this warring around and mature as a civilization.
I’m not seeing a down side to sitting down to talks with the Taliban, to be honest. It’s not like we are going to simply give the country back to them…even if we could. And I seriously doubt Obama et al are going to do any deal with the Taliban that would allow them to continue to openly support AQ in any way.
The neo-cons? After Vietnam? What did the lizard overlords have to say about it?
But, they DID have a time machine, and they had a period…and they weren’t afraid to use it either!!
Well, what can you expect from neo-cons in the post Vietnam era? Besides, how much of a threat could a billion screaming Chinese be?
Did it work as well as one of those really cool robot ones that clean up enemies automatically? Or, maybe it was one of those new bag-less ones? What do the lizard kings say about it?
Well, it was the post-Vietnam era, ehe? Plus, we had one of those enemy vacuum thingies, so of course we had to use it. And the lizards really hate puppies, so it was pretty much inevitable we invaded Iraq because Saddam had a mustache and a pot belly…
Pretty much Q.E.D.
I hear they liked mosaics and pop art…and puppies.
But this is the neo-con dominated post-Vietnam era, and we DID have that enemy vacuum, which was really great at cleaning up broken shards of corrupt former governments.
What would Elvis do?
-XT
Apparently we’ve achieved the singularity.
Are you sure you can’t fit the Nazis and the Confederates somewhere in this mix?
Unless you don’t count that whole “Shooting innocent women in the head in a soccer stadium” thing. But really, who’s counting?
To echo Sam Stone’s comment, are we talking about the same Taliban that enforces morality for women (and I guess men) by restricting women’s freedom in just about every way possible? The burqa, no schooling, no going out without a male chaperone, all that stuff? We’re talking about making peace with THAT Taliban?
Hell NO.
The Taliban are an oppressive organization. But are you saying it’s our duty to eliminate them? Because if you refuse to talk to them, even to discuss how they must change to win our acceptance, then elimination seems to be the only possible goal.
Yeah.
The laws they’ve imposed against half their popular are completely inexcusable. They are no different than the Nazis or those who promulgate apartheid. The woman of Afghanistan deserve much better than to be ruled by openly unrepentant extremist misogynysts.
Yeah right.
I love the idea of the west led by the USA wringing its hands over what we should do in poor Afghanistan after we’ve just killed a million or so for oil in the neighbouring country.
Those people really need our value set.
Yeah Americans suck.
So even thought I voted against W. and even though our current president himself voted against the Iraqi war no American can ever stand up and say that is wrong to forbid women to attend school to become doctors and then state that women cannot see male doctors.
No American should ever stand up and say that it is wrong to beat women publically if they speak too loudly or show a strand of hair. No American can ever stand up against anything because educated women of the west who can dress just about as we please, show up in court and be taken seriously despite having a vagina and not a penis – we are nothing more than murderous hypocrites.
:rolleyes: