I guess at the end of the day, I see all these proposal to better the kids coming up. I SEE that, I really do but I also see that unless the kid takes some agency on his/her own (or is pushed, usually by their parents) then it doesn’t matter what you offer for free. They will likely still fail.
Public education has turned into free baby sitting and we expect educators to not only educate, but parent, give them a moral (political compass) and teach things above and beyond reading, writing, and rithmetic.
It has long been my stance that until something is done by and for(about) parent’s who either do not or cannot help their children.
As is most things wrong with this country, it’s all about poverty and the lack of personal agency.
This isn’t to do with preparation, this has to do with having access.
The reason that I did not learn differential calculus in High School is because it was not offered. Colleges do offer things that are not offered in lower schools.
Otherwise, why do we need anyone to go to college, if you think that they should have learned everything that colleges teach while they were in high school?
Writing off children of parents who do not help their children academically is contributing to the cycle of generational poverty. There needs to be an intervention somewhere and somehow, or else the children of these kids that you have written off will be in the same situation.
And it is not only the children of uneducated parents who would benefit from being able to attain a degree without incurring lifelong crushing debt.
And what the hell is wrong with trade school? We also need plumbers, electricians, carpenters, printers and estheticians … [When I went to NY BOCES we had those trades available, as well as I believe locksmithing and a few others]
We have an overabundance of white collar workers because all the blue collar workers of the first three quarters of the 20th century were bound and determined to send their kids to college for a degree so they wouldn’t have to be white collar workers. It became dirty to work with your hands … “your kid is a plumber, ewwww, I couldn’t stand it if little Murgatroyd had to get his hands dirty” While not even stopping to thing we need service industry workers too. Someone needs to wait tables, cook and clean up in the kitchens, maid service and desk clerks at motels, sell us groceries …
It is not college educations we need, or even trade schools, we need all jobs to provide at least a living income. If that means housing costs need to be capped and literally every single rental treated like Section 8 housing [sliding pay scale] then utility costs and single payer insurance/Obamacare/WTF you want to call it and every other social program needs to be working and functional.
Wrong on almost every single counterpoint.
The reason that you learned differential equations (diffy calc isn’t a class that I’ve heard of) is because YOU wanted to. Quite possibly one reason you didn’t learn it in high school was because it wasn’t offered. But that says nothing about remedial English or Algebra I. And high schoolers all over are graduating without a rudimentary skill in either of those. You want them to then go to College (PAY to go to College, taking out student loans that they will be on the hook forever for) because it offers them opportunity to take those same classes AGAIN.
That simply isn’t smart.
They had opportunity in HS, wasted it. What makes College more likely for them to not waste it?
I don’t want to write the kids off, I want to FIX what’s wrong but further empowering them to go into debt, failing at higher education ain’t helping them one bit.
Are you trying to make the argument that the only people that would benefit from affordable or free post secondary education are the ones who would need remedial classes to make up for what they missed in high school?
I’ll accept gladly the argument that we need to work on our public schools, as they are failing to ensure that as many people as possible have the greatest education possible, but I will not accept the argument that until every problem has been ironed out of public schools, we should not look into making a college education accessible to all who want it.
Which is why my argument is that they shouldn’t have to go into debt, and that there should be options for free or very affordable college available.
(and why all the hate on English classes? Being able to effectively communicate your thoughts and ideas is a good thing, isn’t it?)
Full Disclosure: I am still paying off my own student loans, from a degree I was not able to complete, as it turned out to be rather difficult to hold down a full time job as well as a full time class schedule. The fact that financial aid is tied to your parent’s income is also a problem, as that means that if your parents can but will not pay, then you are in a worse position than if you were impoverished. But, even not having finished my degree, what I did learn while I was there was actually useful and enriching to my life.
Oh I see where the tracks came off. You jumped in the middle of the conversation. No worries.
The conversation started talking about why remedial classes are even a requirement in a 4 yr degree
I guess, something like that. Maybe my reply to puddlegum was conflated, in any case…
But on that topic, I do think that remedial classes should continue to be offered at community colleges. I do think that just because your school and parents failed you doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t ever get the chance to learn them. It may be that just getting out of a toxic environment allows a student to become far more productive academically. Being around other students that are motivated to learn may inspire one to become motivated themselves. I can think of a number of reasons that an adult would take their education more seriously than they did as a kid.
If someone takes these classes and gets their GED or equivalent, that’s a good thing. At that point, maybe they can consider moving on to some level of higher education as well. Personally, I would not admit them into a 4 year degree program until they have met these requirements.
I also do not think there should be any age limit for community college. I’ve met some non-traditional students who drastically improved their lives, livelihoods, and their communities by going back to school in their 30s and 40s.
Sometimes far more them a year or two. Maybe students should be allowed to delay high school graduation (to a point) if they need extra time.
A private school teacher told me they usually have a handful of of students who come there to effectively repeat 12th grade, or they start there in 9th grade after having completed 9th grade elsewhere. Now granted their parents are paying big money. But the concept of needing extra time in high school isn’t completely weird.
No, there isn’t. But there is also not widespread free community college.
What I was saying is that we should have free community college, and that anyone, of any age, can attend.
Currently, in Ohio, if you are under 21, then you get a free High School education. Once you turn 21, it gets much more complicated, but if you get to attend then you generally have to pay something towards your tuition. My concern is that if we were to make community college free as well, it would be proposed to have an age limit on it.
There are a few states, I believe, that do offer community college for free. Do they have an age cut off?
You said age is correlated with default, is that a positive or negative correlation?
It’s a positive correlation, but I also don’t want to increase barriers for older potential students. There are so many success stories* there, but it’s hard enough to do. This of course becomes a non-issue if loans aren’t needed. Although they still might need to be for living expenses, unless we’re talking stipends.
I’m more amenable to free or very cheap (it’s highly subsidized most places I’ve lived but YMMV) CC than I am for free 4-year. But I’m also not thrilled about the prospects of a permastudent eating up resources ad infinitum. But I’m also very much on the record stating that a few people misusing or taking advantage of a program isn’t a good reason for not doing it.
But yes if we were to have free CC I am in full agreement there shouldn’t be an age limit.
*This might make a nice feel-good thread in IMHO.
Putting limits on loans based on a student’s likelyhood to pay them back wouldn’t mean less fortunate kids couldn’t go to college. What it would mean is students would have to be more judicious and reasonable about how much to invest in their education. A HS kid who takes easy classes and has a C- should not have access to the same amount of loans as a kid who takes advanced classes and has an A+. Allowing both of those students to have the same access to $100k or more in loans will not have the same outcome. I’m sure there are some C- students who find their passion in college and go on to make millions, but chances are that student will also struggle in college and then struggle to pay back a large debt load. If instead that student had to be more budget conscious, they would have to consider cheaper options that would incur a debt more in line with their expected ability to pay it back.
I do have problems with k9befrienders default stance that the failure of the student is to be blamed solely on the school , teacher, and parents.
If those same students, who have no idea how to study, put forth effort and allot time efficiently, then you are paying for free college for those same students who failed miserably in high school to fail again in college.
All simply because you need to grant them opportunity to higher learning. They didn’t learn or put forth the effort to learn the lower learning, why do they need higher learning, especially paid for by others?
Ultimately the student, and the student alone becomes the sole advocate of and for the student.
There is a reason why default rates closely correlate to age. A lot of kids aren’t ready to be an adult at the age of 18. Maybe allow free community college at the age of 25 or something?
But now I really want to find data about post-traditional-age students. You’d think they’d more have their shit together, but also maybe more likely to be dealing with other hindering obligations.