Making a wise choice on a complete HVAC system

In My Humble Opinion
1

These are big purchases of which any homeowner is going to have to deal with sooner or later. Got burned on my latest purchase, out over $4,000.00, and it’s only five years old. Brand name on it was Tanner. I’ve had about 10 service calls over the last five years, going through some 5-6 different servicemen, and nobody can really pinpoint what’s a matter with it. Most just want to sell me yet another new complete system with the brand they generally install.

I didn’t realize it was supposed to be this complex. I would like to get a simpler system, most seem to be bad mouthing these two stage or higher energy efficient systems, saying their compressors and electronics behind it are too complex, and if they go out, will cost you over $1,000.00 compared to around $300.00 or so for a single stage. I wanted the two stage for efficiency, it was a 16.5 seers rating on my last unit. I was told quite a few manufacturers make 15 seer rating units that are still single stage, and affordable if the compressor was to go out. I’m not totally sure the main reason they are bad mouthing these systems is because they and others are just not competent enough to know what to do to service them. I do know my brother bought a Trane some 20 years ago that was their highest energy rated system on the market at the time, and it was multi-stage, and for the 7-10 years so since he had lived in the home before he moved out of it, never once experienced any problems with it.

I’ve read from various sites that said Consumer Reports rated American Standard as the most reliable and the fewest service calls, followed by Rheem and Trane. I’ve also read that American Standard and Trane come off the same assembly line now. The worst for reliability and service calls were Amana, Goodman, and York. Not sure where Carrier stands.

That’s basically where I’m at right now. It would certainly be cheaper for me to buy a complete system off of e-bay, and find an installer to put it in, but most HVAC installers frown on this, they want to put in the whole unit, so they can get about $2,000-$3000 profit from the installation and selling you the complete unit retail price.

Does anybody do the 10 years parts and labor anymore? Seems like I read a few got this. What’s your experience with HVAC systems?

2

I got a Trane system, two-stage, 90% (I think) efficiency. 10 years parts & labor, and they mean it. Had to call them once, they fixed whatever, no charge (this was 5 years in).

But, things I didn’t think about: It has a filter that should be changed once a month, and changing it is a real hassle, in that you have to unscrew and disassemble and then put it all back together…correctly…I needed something that you just slide the filter out and slide the new one in. Nope.

Also it is very noisy. It warms up the house much faster and more evenly than the old one but the sound of the air whooshing through the pipes during the second stage is LOUD. Louder in some rooms than others (depending I guess on how many bends there are in the pipes). Bedroom: loud. Family room: Loud enough you need to turn up the TV while it’s going. Living room: not so loud. Bathroom: not so loud.

I think quiet costs more.

I could have added AC for about $500 more than I paid for it but I hate AC and don’t need it, so I can’t speak to the AC part.

3

Consumer Reports used to refuse to rate them, if it means anything to you, because the performance is evidently much more closely linked to the quality of the install than it is to the maker of the unit. I got the highest rated HVAC company in the area to do it and have them do their quarterly inspections because of that. They’re a little more expensive but I’ve been very happy with them.

4

I had both Trane and Carrier reps come to the house and run through the calcs, costs, etc. The only real difference is that Trane had a 10 year warranty and they were more expensive. Carrier had a 5 year. I told Carrier I’d go with them if they would give me the longer warranty and they agreed.

5

HVAC professionals are being squeezed by requirements for new (and expensive) equipment (the old R-22 refrigerant is now outlawed, and the equipment for it is not adequate for the replacement) and the increasing prevalence of DIY-oriented systems (split system AC).

What this means: good luck finding a competent pro willing to install some pile of “stuff” from ebay. Have you found the calculation for determining the size of system your particular residence requires? How are you going to know which unit to buy?

Most don’t bother with the calculation, they just put in a new system the same size as the last.
Which may or may not have been correct.

The guts of a system are off-the-shelf - the motors, the burners, compressors, etc.
Each mfg will typically make the sheet metal and the coils and circuit boards.

Your rating scale sounds about right - Goodman in particular is one that many won’t touch.
I’m guessing Tanner is a local brand.
The only HVAC board I know is famous for not knocking anyone, so they won’t tell you Goodman is crap - they will have the odd conversation about just how bad it is…
It is HVACTALK, if you want to browse.

If you want to go with the ebay approach, first get a pro lined up - there may be a good one hungry enough, or some new kid looking for any work he can find.

Expect all kinds of “inspection” “cleaning” and “adjustment” charges - if you deprive him of the profit on the hardware, he will find some way of making it worth his while.

IOW: You will not get (much) more than you pay for.

If you want AC, you either buy a split system (one per room) or you pay a pro - you cannot buy refrigerant without an EPA license (it is a major greenhouse gas).

My Lennox (another good name) died - it was an early design with everything on a single board.
The MSRP for the replacement board was $500. The local supply store sold it for $300. That is how HVAC people make their money - don’t expect them to be happy about being deprived of it.

6

re quality of install - this cannot be over-stated.

One owner on hvactalk posted pics of his brand new install - foam board for the plenum, small flex duct wrapped around a rafter support (air doesn’t like flex duct to begin with - asking it to then make a sharp 90 degree turn means you get very little coming out).
That duct work will make any system work much more that a decent install would have.
To give you an idea of how hvactalk works: nobody said “that is crap”; the consensus was “you got an ‘average’ install”.

I hope your duct work is usable as it sits, because it is expensive to do to it right.

7

My brother had the opposite problem on his Trane. You may have had a ducting problem. There’s a rule of thumb they use for sizing, and length of run that they use. It took some getting used to for his Trane because it was too quiet, so the first month or so he had to put his ear up to the vent, to see if it the unit was on, when it was operating on one of it’s most efficient stages. Talked to him today, he says his had a 18 Seers rating which was the highest at the time.

8

Carrier was just out today. And they started out with a 10 year parts and labor warranty. Well sorta, after two years, they charge you an additional $140.00 a year for ESA (whatever that means) that you must pay, or it voids the warranty. So that adds an additional $1,000.00 to the costs.

9

The calculation and rule of thumb of all the HVAC guys I’ve known is about one ton for every 500 s.f… I told them I’d probably need a two ton. Carrier sent out a two person sales team, a man was dictating to the lady who was taking notes and entering figures into the calculator. They were going to do an complete analysis, so it would take a few minutes. They checked how many windows I had, quickly walked their way around my home, and after about five minutes determined with the help of their calculator I was going to need a two ton unit. :slight_smile: They didn’t bother to ask me about insulation or how much of it I had in the ceiling. Think that would have been important, particularly if you didn’t have any of that.

I don’t know where Tanner originates from, most HVAC people seem to not have heard of it either. I found it interesting that the same company that sold me this piece of crap, sent me out their best man and since he doesn’t have a clue how to fix it, is now trying to talk me into buying a Goodman.

Recently just got a e-mail quote from Carrier for the following set-up.

They said to also add another $400.00 if I wanted a Trane. So if you add the additional $140.00 a year for eight years onto the price, it’s not quite $7,000.00 or a a little over $7,000.00 for a Trane.

Never heard of Puron before. I used to know several good HVAC guys, but are retired now. Even though they did it for a living, they felt like the annual and bi-annual inspections was really a crock, and was told as long as I was changing out the filters regularly, I’d be fine.

I’ve got two more coming out for quotes tomorrow. Hopefully others can beat that price by a good margin, because there is no way I’m going to pay that kind of a mark-up.

10

I wanted to add, some of the criticism for Goodman may not be valid. Although they rank in the bottom three in reliability from CU, some of this may be due to installation problems. I read from one poster without knowing if this is fact or not, that Goodman still allows their units to be sold to individuals without having a licensed installer put it in. This also may explain why many HVAC people also bad-mouth it, because it is taking away from their inflated mark-ups on what they can get away with on the brands they are wanting you to buy.

11

I heat and cool about 2400 sq ft with a 2 stage Trane, it was new with the house, 12 years ago, came with a 10 year warranty, of course the fan motor went out right at 10 years. Figured out how to replace that giving it it’s own capacitor because it was rated higher than the compressor, the whole system still works good as new. Before I retire I’m going to have the whole thing ripped out and upgraded cause I want to die with the AC on high. Invest in a good system with a top contractor, I say, it’s all too complicated for DYI or for some Joe doing it as a side job.

12

FWIW, I had a Goodman heat pump installed 5 years ago, and it has worked flawlessly.

13

My extremely well rated company sold me a Goodman, and told me it was as good as the big brands for less money. The thing is how the hell can you rate a claim like that, not being a professional? But I’ve been very happy with everything this company has told me - I’ve never felt upsold by them and the service is fantastic, and I haven’t had any problems. Not sure how long it’s been - four years, maybe? Anyway, on a product like that which depends so much on installation and you don’t know if it sucks balls for a good ten years, probably, how do you tell?

14

Consumer Reports said the Goodman, Amana and York brands failed the most with them requiring the most service calls, IIRC, 1/5 units in six years. So it could be worse, I suppose.

One problem I have is finding out who really is a professional HVAC installer. I’m sure many consider themselves professional, but most of it seems like marketing fluff to me. Those that have been out to my house thus far, are far from being anything professional, when they are not capable of fixing or even sure how to go about solving the problem. And I’ve dealt with the bigger companies, as well as smaller independents. Basically, after they take off the cover, run a few basic tests, they then sit and stare at it for a awhile longer, telling me it might be this or that or the other, but don’t know how to go about finding out for sure what the problem is, and generally tell me if they had this tester or that tester, this or that manual, they could possibly eliminate this or that, but it never goes further than making suggestions without following up and getting to the real problem. Most have complained about how complex it is being a two stage and all, yet that’s pretty well standard on any high seer rating model, and has been out for decades now. I have told them, regardless of what it is, I just want it fixed. But they are not capable of doing so. Finally, they leave, but not before encouraging me to go with their brand.

15

Then I’d say they suck, all of 'em.

16

At least the ones I’ve dealt with. Gosh, I’d rather be out dealing with a used car salesman.

If a Goodman installer would give me a good warranty with it, I would maybe take a chance on one of those provided I could find a professional installer. It wouldn’t surprise me with so many independents installing these over the years, it made their service calls higher than the others.

17

If you want the gory details of how an HVAC system SHOULD be designed, see here:

It sounds like the Carrier team did a Manual J calc for you. Yes, insulation is a factor and, if your place was built the same time and place as a hundred others, they probably know the insulation common to those places. If you have installed additional insulation, you might want to call back and have them modify the calculations.

The $140/yr is another example of good old USA over-insurance (ESA = Extended Service Agreement, my guess). It is nothing but an over-priced insurance policy on the system.
IOW: Pure Profit - a decent HVAC system will not die in 10 years.

They will also try to convince you that you absolutely MUST have an annual check-up (for $100-$200). If you can change a filter, you don’t need service unless it stops working. It’s not like there are grease joints and oiling blocks in these things.

When you do have a problem, keep going through people until you find somebody who will do a bit more than open the compressor or heat pump and squirt in additional refrigerant. That is the classic “Vamp 'til Ready” trick of the trade.

Carrier wants to give the refrigerant a name they can trademark. I’m not impressed - the refrigerant to be used is determined by the EPA, not the marketing department of a manufacturer.

Always get at least 3 bids - ALWAYS throw out the lowest - esp. if much lower - those get your foam board and crappy ducts.

At least the Carrier team did a proper calc. and did not rely on what the builder installed. Builders are notorious for using the cheapest stuff they can pass off - including HVAC systems - if a builder can get a great price on 10 units, there are going to be 10 homes with bargain HVAC systems - right size or not.

18

razncain -

You have a Tanner (why am I thinking “Builder’s Special”?) - of course they don’t know what the hell they are looking at - unless there is a diagram of the circuits on the circuit board(s), nobody knows what that thing is doing or why.

When everybody says “don’t know about this one”, it just might be the thing that is the problem, not the people.

19

Oh - I assure you, the people who install Goodman units still mark them up. Every trade which deals with “Parts and Labor” make profits on both sides.
Everybody knows this.
With the web, everybody can figure out you much the tradesman paid for the hardware. So What?

People who do business without making a profit aren’t going to be around long.

20

Multi-stage HVAC system ARE much more complex than single stage - and parts - esp. the compressor - are going to be more expensive, and the circuity is going to me more complex, making board replacement more expensive.
If you think the Carrier bid was too high (is the ESA a required purchase? No? - don’t buy it), forget multistage - as an idle activity until the next bid comes in for you to dislike, try this:
How many years would you have to use the system to recoup the (large) difference in price between SEER 14 and SEER 15?

In any industry, the cutting edge is always much more expensive and fragile. The term “Bleeding Edge” exists for a reason.

How much more do you pay to get a hybrid car vs gasoline only? Those Tesla roadsters weren’t cheap either.