Exactly. All this talk of women not using prostitutes because of the social stigma – there’s quite a lot of social stigma for guys doing it too.
Perhaps among some groups there might be a different culture (e.g. truckers) out of necessity, but usually it is one of the most embarrassing things people could find out about you.
The reason some guys risk doing it, is because they really, really want to. And sometimes, feel they need to.
Guys get increasingly frustrated and desparate the longer they go without sex.
If women’s urges work in the same way…they pretend very well to the contrary.
Nobody’s saying that it’s not a factor at all. Rather, what’s being disputed is the claim that this is the main reason why they don’t seek out prostitutes.
Some women do want it. They pay a price in social stigma for it, too, beyond what any man would be asked to pay.
Once again, the social stigma on a woman who says that (or does that) is much stronger than on a man.
Part of me says this attitude is discriminatory. No doubt it is, somewhat. Another part of me says that, as disruptive as it is for men to freely chase tail, that women freely and openly chasing status would be deeply disruptive. It would bring the usually hidden jealousy between men out into the open - very likely resulting in widespread violence. In the battle of the sexes, it would be the equivalent of scorched earth bombing.
Can we cancel out the countries where the majority of the female population have undergone circumcision or genital mutilation, countries where women are not allowed to leave their homes without a male companion as well as those where the majority of women don’t work and have no personal savings or means of financial support beyond their husbands?
How many women cum form a quickie? Again, as I see it, this doesn’t mean they don’t want to have lots of sex, but that they’d like to increase the chances of an orgasm occurring.
Why do conservatives fear the Pill, Plan B, the HPV vaccine? They fear greater sexual promiscuity from women without the restraining social stigma or fear of disease to curtain their behavior. Most of you seem to imply women do not have feelings of lust or desire, this is nonsense. If this were true the introduction of the pill should have not changed female behavior in the slightest, put it did. Ask Seige or Pepperlandgirl about lust and female drives.
BTW I am a male and have no interest in casual sex, prostitutes, multiple lovers. I am a one woman guy looking for the same from a woman. If a man admits this he is in a lot of cases ridiculed.
I find it difficult to believe that probability of having an orgasm is a major factor in whether someone chooses to have sex.
Nonetheless, your point reinforces I think what many people on this thread are saying.
The thread has moved on from the OP. I don’t think anyone is arguing any more that women are less horny than guys (certainly no-one has for a while).
The point, I think of most people here, is that a woman’s sexuality is generally different to a man’s such that the idea of “transactional” sex with a stranger appeals to them much less.
I can think of more natural explanations for the difference than a lower chance of orgasm…but even so it would still be a difference in the behaviour of the genders with no obvious cultural influence.
Sexes. Sex and gender mean different things. Sex is biological, gender is psychological. You can be male sex, female gender, that’s why they call it transgender.
This is just ridiculous. There is no social stigma if you don’t tell anyone. Men risk social stigma, divorce and going to jail for sex with a prostitute and you are telling me that women would do it too if it weren’t for “social stigma”. What social stigma if no one knows?
And, contrary to what some are saying, there are plenty of women in the world who are free and powerful and who could not care less about social stigma and they still don’t do it. While men do it in secret and are often caught. Many men have paid a steep price for having been discovered having sex where they shouldn’t. Preachers, ministers, CEOs, congressmen, Bill Clinton, Hugh Grant… now tell me how many women have been discovered in the same situation. These men knew they were risking big time when they did it and yet they did it anyway. It seems the urge was quite strong. How many women get an urge so strong for immediate sex that they leave the house and seek someone, anyone, for sex?
The notion that all women are somehow controlled by invisible social forces just does not hold water. It is preposterous.
Are you telling me that women who on this board have told us way TMI on way too many things are shy to say they would sleep with a different guy every week?
Anyone on the internet cannot say people are shy to tell what they think.
Gay men are subject to worse social stigma than women with more than one partner and yet it does not seem that gay men forgo sex because of that. On the contrary, they seem to have as much sex as they can get hold of.
Look at teenagers. They will try anything even if forbidden. Drugs, sex, etc. Now, how many women do you know who remembering their school years will say “I was SO horny but I just couldn’t get guys to have sex with me!” . Because pretty much that’s how guys remember those years. Never getting enough sex.
The notion that men and women have sex urges which are equal in quality and quantity just does not stand up to any scrutiny. None whatsoever.
It would also be exceptional in the animal world. Men and women are just different, different hormones is what makes the difference, not different upbringing.
Men are different in many ways, why would they not be different in this one? Men are more violent. Just look at the prison population. Is this also a matter of culture? It happens in every culture.
What does “stronger” mean, as applied to the urge to have sex? More frequent? Less controlled? Then men have a stronger urge, for sure.
But as a woman who places enormous value on sex…(really, enormous value, way more than just about anyone I know, certainly) I think this is partly because they have such simple standards. They are orgasm obsessed, as biology demands. I have heard so many men say that there’s no such thing as bad sex, and they are just barely kidding.
Women and men experience sex differently. Anyone who doesn’t recognize that isn’t paying attention.
I consider myself corrected. I did mean to say sex.
But there are a couple of things that I should point out. Firstly, all the online definitions I could find define gender as either psychological sex or physiological sex.
Secondly, even if I was talking about gender identity it not necessarily wrong to talk about animals having genders. Most species have clear male and female behaviours and most, possibly all, have some incidence of “gay” individuals.
Exactly. That’s what I’ve been saying all along and which I think is obvious and supported by all evidence. But there are people who insist that were it not for social conditioning men and women would be exactly alike. I think there is absolutely no evidence for that.
I think people who do not understand the differences are frustrated when things do not work out as they think they should. I believe the most successful couples are those who recognise their differences and complement each other.
While the sex drive in human males is stronger, leading males down the primrose path of inanely stupid choices, women have a greater capacity for sexual behavior once they get going. Women don’t have that annoying “pop goes the weasel” event that takes the air out of men’s sails.
Women tend to make better choices to devote their … energy toward.
Men get the short end of the deal, actually. Boo hoo, and all that rot.
Nobody ever said men and women were exactly alike. As I said earlier, I believe that women in general have a much stronger sex drive than society allows them to express, and that in a sex-positive society they would express this more.
I’ve got a friend. She likes to take guys home from bars and do “everything but.” She spends all night coming, but won’t allow them to penetrate her. Why? I mean, clearly she likes some kind of sex. It’s not that she isn’t horny. Why won’t she just do it? Well, it could be her caveman urges. Or it could be because when she was growing up, her dad said it would send her to hell.
I feel like it is more likely the latter.
Anyway, I’m getting nowhere. Maybe most women’s sexual experience is so far out of my understanding that I can’t relate at all (really? you guys have never had a girl who comes during a quickie?) I’ve heard that many women rarely reach orgasm, etc. But this really, really, really isn’t my experience. And I feel like this is more likely because I was raised not to be ashamed of my sexuality than me being a total freak.
It’s more that this is the main reason why men *do *seek out prostitutes. Women’s sexuality is made artificially scarce by a society that tells women that they lose value and (until very recently) their ability to make a living if they do not ration their sexual activity.
I would say she is smart, and makes the best of her possible choices. Great orgasms, and not putting the working parts together, which leads to the possibility of children.
The concept of “alpha male” is defined for lions, wolves, moose, walruses, and a few other species. It is not and should be defined for human beings. Anyone who refers to a man as an “alpha male” or tries to use it to explain women’s preferences is merely engaging in a bit of pop psycho-babble.
In any case, the claim that women are attracted exclusively to men who are either big and brawny or socially dominant is easily dismissed. Ten years ago millions of teenage girls all over the world went nuts for Leonardo DiCaprio’s character in Titanic. His character was dirt poor and desperate, and his looks were undeniably effeminate. The facts don’t fit the theory.
I am not a woman so I can’t speak from firsthand experience, but I can say this much. If anyone asked me to explain all of my sexual feelings, preferences, and desires, they’d better get comfortable because it would take a long time. The list would be too long to summarize in any sentence, or paragraph, or chapter, or book. My sexual reactions change from time to time and from place to place. Now I’m willing to bet that the same is true for others, both women and men. Humans simply refuse to have their sexuality shoved into the simplistic molds that some people want to impose on them.
While that’s certainly food for thought, some researchers do believe that the new information about the speed of evolution undermines the legitimacy of evolutionary psychology. From here:
Or it may be just because the evidence for any behavior-related genes is weak at best. Of the hundreds of modules that evolutionary psychologists have theorized about, not a single one has yet been mapped to specific genes. And it’s not like researchers haven’t been looking.
Guess what, you’ve meet me. And you’ve met other women who just didn’t say anything because our society puts strong, strong pressure on us not to. Male value is not dependent on sexual purity. Female value is. Why do you think that women in their 20s believe that they can’t get a guy if they admit to masturbation (I know several girls like this)? Or why do so many women lie about their sexual partners, claiming that they have fewer than they have? Why do many women wait an arbitrary number of dates to have sex? Why is calling a teen-aged girl slut/whore enough to draw many to suicide? Why do women wear white wedding dresses (a sign of sexual purity) even when they are pregnant? Why do men put a ton of pressure on female virginity?
If you seriously believe that there isn’t a double standard, you must have been living under a rock or not really talking to women.
I have often wished I was a guy because I want to be able to do this.
Part of this is societal, part of this in biological. However, as others have mentioned, the reason for refraining from anonymous sex has nothing to do with sex drive. The biological reason is that women risk more from stranger sex than males in that they can get pregnant.
The social side is that men are (generally) stronger, bigger, more dangerous. I have female friends that have taken strange males home from clubs and had the males become very violent and rape my friends. Most (if not all) females have had unwanted sexual advances from males.
Even in this age of birth control, the risks for females are greater. But again, just because females seek casual sex less, doesn’t mean that they have a lower sex drive or lesser urge to do so. If an activity is more risky for a group of people to engage in, then that group of people will engage in it less, even if the urges are the same.
It’s a big one for me and I’m sure many women.
I know that by saying that I would sleep with a different guy every week that I will develop a reputation as a ‘slut’. Admit it, you are probably thinking that I am one right now. I have already been called that by members of this board because I speak freely and openly about my sexual desire.
Gay men are not subject to social stigma than woman when it comes to sex!! Are you kidding? That’s one of the funniest things I’ve heard all week! Go to any gay guy and ask him how much he values virginity in his partners. You may find a few but the vast majority (and I’ve done polls), prefer experience. Now go ask straight guys how much they value virginity in their partners. Straight men get more freaked out by partners with greater sexual history than gay men.
I’m not saying that males and females are the same in every aspect. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, there are differences. I can identify a male skeleton versus a female skeleton and I would not be able to do so if there weren’t physical differences. However, I don’t believe that this is an issue where there are sex differences. To go back to the non-human primates thing, I’ve spent time with rhesus macaques and there isn’t a sex difference when it comes to sex drive. The same appears to be true for many other species of non-human primates based upon my studies. If a difference does exist in humans, it has to be a trait that evolved in our species. I see no evidence for that.
To back up ITR champion’s excellent post, the alpha male theory doesn’t work very well in most species of primates. They’ve done paternity studies which have found that the official alpha male of chimp, macaque, and other non-human primate groups is not always the one with the highest reproductive success. In fact, males who spend all their time fighting to the top of the social hierarchy can lower their reproductive success because they spend more time fighting other males than mating.
In regards to Evolutionary Psychology, none of my professors of Evolutionary Anthropology believe it. In fact, I’ve had at least three professors bring it up as an example of how not to do science. There is an excellent deconstruction of it in a recent issue of Scientific America and they bring up the differences in sexes caring more about sexual infidelity as an example. Studies had shown that males cared more about sexual infidelity, while females care more about emotional infidelity. The people who did these studies said that it was due to the stone-age sexual practices of men and women and so forth. As the writer of that essay correctly pointed out, gay men care more about emotional infidelity which suggests that the reason these differences occur have more to do with society than biology. Women are expected to not have casual sex and women who do so are regarded as really expressing a disregard for their male partners.
In regards to the politicians, think about what would have happened should the situation been reserved. When men cheat on their wives and their wives stand by them, people kind of expect the women to do so and are more lenient towards the man. When women cheat on the men and the men stand by their wives, a lot of people look at the man as a pushover or someone who has done something wrong.
I spend a lot of time on mostly male message boards. I know how much males in our culture value female sexual purity in general and look down on women who openly enjoy sex in ways that males do.
It’s funny. To me, LdC’s character is alpha male to the point of being unbelievable. He’s super-brave, he always knows what to do and makes a decision instantly, he leads kate winslet’s character when she’s indecisive, he “wins” every verbal interaction he has in the film etc.
The other main dude in the film is the one who is desparate and insecure. The only advantage he has is his wealth, the only effect of which we see in the film is he stays in the boring part of the ship and wears snappy suits.
Definitely LdC seems the alpha male in the film.
So to clarify, we’re saying that you could see a guy, be horny and really want to have sex, but make a judgement that that person is unlikely to bring you to orgasm, and on that basis only, walk away?
Even if that’s true, all it does is support my argument. I’m saying that sex drives work differently between men and women. If I could choose between sex with a woman I find moderately attractive, with orgasm, versus sex with someone I find super hot without orgasm, I’d pick the latter.
