I am pretty sure they have. Now see if you can find a culture where male and female roles are reversed. I am sure you can find some tiny tribe in Africa or South America with some weird stuff but I am also quite sure you will not find any culture of any significance. At any rate, the burden is on you to supply the proof rather than just assume it must exist.
Wow! Exactly the same things men are told! What are the odds?
Here’s my answer: very little. Our culture has changed radically with every generation but men’s and women’s approach to sex has been basically the same across the ages and across cultures.
If a 12 year old boy believed masturbating would lead to hairy palms, blindness or his soul being tainted and sent to hell how long do you suppose he could hold out? A week, maybe? I’m really not confident it would scar him for life and make 30% of boys unable to achieve orgasm.
No one has actually talked about that. Are we supposed to just ignore the large minority of women who don’t have a sex life as most men understand it?
At the same time, the fact that women aren’t as predatory as men doesn’t speak to differences in sex drives. It just means women aren’t as messed up as men are. So yeah, men may rape on a mass scale across history, diddle their daughters, treat women like cattle, carry them off as prizes of war, visit prostitutes, or engage in ridiculously risky behavior but it doesn’t necessarily mean anything in terms of the drive itself. For all we know women could average 8 orgasms a night and we’d be none the wiser. It’s not true, as it turns out, but it could be in principle. I don’t think women with high sex drives act like men in general, although I could be wrong.
Obviously they do, but Playgirl ain’t for the girls. Despite making up only ~6-7% of the male population homosexuals have a much larger demand for pornography (from soft to hard to ahem, calendars as you say) than straight women, who make up 51% of the entire population. If there are any girls out there who want to find pictures of naked men she would have to search for porn aimed at gay guys.
Why is it that, in debates, people argue passionately for one side or the other? If both sides have valid points, and the sides are not mutually exclusive, is it not more likely that both sides are right, to a certain extent?
Why is it impossible to say that the difference in sex drives between males and females is both cultural and biological? In fact, either one would greatly affect the other, anyways. If a trait is more culturally acceptable, natural selection is going to make that difference biological. And if it is biological, a culture is going to form around it. And then it it is more culturally acceptable, repeat ad infinitum.
I can’t cite this, and I’m not sure if it’s already been mentioned… but I’ve heard that, on average, men have a better depth perception than women.
I don’t think all women are bad drivers. There are some male drivers who are worse drivers than females. As a whole, however, I think men are the better drivers… but that’s only because ever since the invention of the automobile it’s been associated with masculinity and, until quite recently, marketed more towards the male population. In the golden years of the automobile, men were more likely to be driving the family around on a Sunday afternoon, passing this tradition down many generations, somehow evolving men to where driving is almost something natural to them.
GAH! slaps forehead.
…yeah, ok… I totally misread the title of this thread. Wow.
Let my mistake be a life lesson to you, kids… Always read the posts other people have posted before typing a reply (or just pay EXTRA close attention to the title of the thread).
That may be because historically females in most cultures have been expected to have a low sex drive submissive to that of the male, and because generally females masturbate less frequently than men (some studies claim a lot less and some suggest a slighter difference).
Well, women tend to share more, particularly when it comes to sex. And let’s be honest, when it comes to sex toys it is a woman’s world - there’s just a lot more to talk about if you’re a woman. If you’re a guy, on average your conversation options are limited to pornographic material, lube, and maybe a sheath of silicon gel. If you’re a woman, the huge range of rabbit vibrators alone can keep the discussion going for hours. Then you get into butterflies, remote controls, attachments, etc., etc.
Regarding the (unquestionably real) ability of women to feel powerful physical lust for hunky males, this can be tested quite simply by experiment. If you are not a hunky male or cannot secure one for your experiments, simply identify a few female subjects and get them talking about Hugh Jackman.
Dunno so much about totally “anonymous”, but definitely “casual”. When I was in college (and shortly thereafter), there were lots of single guys around whom I liked, was comfortable with, and was attracted to. I wasn’t intimidated about what might happen with them because I knew them personally, and there was a social safety net of mutual acquaintances, non-sexual social bonds, etc. And I was secure in my sexual morality and not worried about arbitrary chastity standards. So yeah, I had lots of casual sex. It was great.
Twenty years down the road, I’d still be happy to have a situation like that, but the circumstances are so different. There aren’t a lot of single guys around the place whom I feel comfortable with, and I’m afraid to risk the stability of existing non-sexual social/professional situations with the few guys who do qualify. I’m afraid to go looking for unconnected strangers in situations totally separate from my regular social life, because I worry they might injure, kill, or stalk me. I’m afraid of being “skeevy”. I won’t seek out younger men, who are more likely to be single, because I’m afraid of being predatory or exploitative.
I don’t think this is a specifically female thing. I have male friends who also refrain from trying to have anonymous sex with strangers during times when they’re single. Not because they have low sex drives, but because they don’t like the scary/skeevy aspects. What you are willing to do for sex is not necessarily a reliable indicator of how strong your sexual feelings are.
Do I sometimes wish I lived in a commune or poly utopia where there were lots of appealing guys to have casual sex with and less to be afraid of? Yes, I do. Do I seek out male prostitutes or anonymous strangers to have sex with instead? No, I don’t. Do I think that that means that I have a lower sex drive than the average man, or that if I really “wanted it I would find a safe way of doing it?” No. I don’t.
OK. We have an anecdote. Now show me data proving most women are like that to the same extent as the guys.
You knew them and were comfortable with them. How long did that take? Because for a 20 year old man do you know how long it takes to get to know a woman and be comfortable enough to have sex with her? In many cases in less than fifteen minutes most guys are already quite sure: “yup, I’d fuck right now”. Then they have to work their way until she’s ready. Normally it is not the other way around. Anecdotes not withstanding.
Moving goalposts. You didn’t just say that men generally want more casual or immediate sex than women generally do. You asserted as a statement of fact that women don’t want it:
I knew from personal experience that your categorical statement wasn’t true as it stood, so I gave you a counterexample. Now, if you’ll make up your mind what point you’re actually trying to make, and stick to it, then we can discuss that.
A sweeping generalization unsupported by reliable evidence doesn’t really outrank an anecdote unsupported by reliable evidence.
Do you deny that women can feel lust based on physical appearance only? I’m speaking solely of desire here, rather than action, due to other factors. I completely accept that for many women, appearance has little to do with pair-bonding choices, but it seems to me some (male) people in this discussion are discounting female ability to ‘lust’ with the same or similar criteria as men.
Oh, ok, it’s that stupid tactic again. I can qualify 20 posts with “most men”, “most women” etc and it is clear from the context that the thread is comparing men as a group with women as a group but there is always someone who comes has to come in with an anecdote. Yes, my grandmother smoked two packs a day and lived to be 93. Like that is supposed to prove something.
Read the thread. Nowhere have I said or implied that there are no exceptions to the general rule. What we are discussing if the general rule, not the exceptions to it.
I think the problem is that the conversation is going something like this:
Sailor This is how women feel… Actual real life women This doesn’t reflect my experience. Sailor Well then, your experiences must be a meaningless anomaly. Actual real life women ???
The thing is with this thread is that many of the debaters are not arguing the OP.
The OP was that women have a lower sex drive, and perhaps implied that “normal” women don’t like sex.
Well, I’m certainly not arguing that: I’ve known very horny women, and I think the OP made a mistake by setting up the debate on the basis of sex drive.
All my point is, and Sailor’s I think, is that there is an difference in sex drive, that clearly has a large instinctive component.
Kimstu, I found your experiences very interesting but a lot of what you’ve said does hint at these very differences I’m referring to. You had to become comfortable with guys before you’d sleep with them. Nowadays you’re quite apprehensive about having sex with random guys. Guys don’t tend to think this way.
It’s funny: I often hear that sex is uber-important to guys, but I think the reverse is true. For guys, it’s just a fun activity and we don’t understand why doing it is taken so seriously.
If a pretty woman were to stop me in the street and ask for sex, I’d first think it was some kind of con or joke. Once satisfied that it’s for real, if I were single, then sure I’d go for it.
It would be like a person stopping me in the street and saying that they have a tennis court for an hour, would I like to play against them. “Sure, why not?”
I think the key word in your quote is trying.
I’ve never seen an instance of a single guy turning down guaranteed sex with a woman he considers physically attractive.
But often in a guy’s life he won’t try to score, simply because it can be a big hassle and there are no guarantees. Also it’s something that men require confidence for, and that confidence is easily erroded.
It’s not a question of what I affirm or deny - I merely point out that citing Hugh Jackman as an example of a man whom women are attracted to based solely on appearance is complete tosh, for the reason stated.
No it’s not. You can quite easily see the difference by striking up a conversation about Hugh Jackman and Ron Perlman. Or Danny De Vito. Or any other non-sexually attractive male who is wealthy and successful. I am sure the difference in response will provide a staggering epiphany.
Mind you, my first recommendation was to be a hunk yourself, or observe what happens when women are exposed to a hunk - celebrity and wealth were not indicated. if you can use a reference point who is a hunk and who is not wealthy and famous, well that would certainly be better.
even sven: There is no difference between men and women. Any difference is caused by brainwashing. sailor: All the evidence I see does not support that. Biology shows it would be truly exceptional because it is not the case in other species. Women and men are very different in pretty much all cultures. They are different in their sexuality, their aggressiveness and other aspects in similar ways around the world. This would be a tremendous coincidence which I do not think can be explained by chance. We are talking about millions and millions of men and women in cultures around the world. even sven: But I say I am NOT like that and I am twenty something and know much more than the rest of the world. sailor: Could it be that you are the one who has been brainwashed into believing what you think should be instead of observing the world as it really is? Could it be that you have some bias? Because the bulk of the evidence does not support your argument regardless of what you say.
Yeah, that’s the sort of thing I’m wondering about as well. If the female sex drive is driven by the desire for security, then why don’t women flip out for Bill Gates? Why don’t crowds of teenage girls swoon whenever Warren Buffett is on stage? Why don’t we see any calendars with pictures of the Wal-Mart heirs?
I remember once hearing on the radio that Frank Perdue had made the list of hottest (or perhaps it was only most eligible) something-or-others. And they pointed out to some women that he looked a lot like one of his chickens. And they said “yeah, but he’s a chicken with x million in the bank!”
I would suggest that girls of the swooning age are not looking for monetary security.
