Why do I even bother sometimes.
:rolleyes:
Doesn’t matter. If I call 911 for medical help, then refuse it, I will get a choice: go to jail or go to the hospital. What if the guy were under duress because he got a call from the “mad bomber?” Zoinks!
Precisely. But it’s such a good civic exercise, and I get to watch you go all foamy. Furthermore, it’s just an opinion! Please calm down.
Why can’t you get as angry at the wanton abuse of Equal Protection? Are you so willing to let a key point in our 14th Amendment slip through our collective fingers? At least one poster has mentioned the life of a bank robber is less valuable than that of a banker. What’s wrong with you?
World Eater, you bother because you’re intelligent enough to see the quandary.
For the third time, do you have any evidence, any whatsoever, that the guy who answered the door was the one who made the phone call?
No?
Fuck him, he refused medical help. What is this the opposite game? I want help, no I don’t, yes I do?
If you feel fucked up call 911. If you think you feel fucked up call 911. If you don’t want help, then don’t call 911. I’ll go ahead and assume that had the paramedics found something to haul him in for, they would have done so. He refused further help and they obliged.
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It’s more a sad exercise
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I would think that the situation would be handled exactly the same no matter who was involved, which is equal protection to me.
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He was being sarcastic. His problem is you have no reading comprehension.
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But you’re not, and that’s the problem. You won’t even concede a single possible point, like…
- He wasn’t sitting there for 40 minutes.
- The people on the scene were not qualified to tinker with a bomb.
- 40 minutes is not an unusual amount of time to assemble a specialized team.
- It is impossible, both logistically and financially, to prepare for every single contingency law enforcement people could come across, therefore they should concentrate resources on situations they encounter most, not least.
Do you have support for this proposition? At first you said it will happen, now you seem to say it ought to happen. But people are not arrested for calling 911 then refusing help unless it is a pattern of abuse of the system.
Do you have support for the argument that this suspected bank robber with a bomb strapped to him was treated differently than other suspected bank robbers with bombs strapped to them?
You see, Equal Protection doesn’t say that suspected bank robbers must be treated the same as people who are not suspected of robbing a bank. Nor does it say that Patrolman Smith has to try to defuse a bomb. I suggest that you actually get an understanding of the Equal Protection clause before you try to wrap yourself in its righteous glow.
- 37 minutes. I concede.
- The people on the scene should have been able to tinker.
- I guess it’s acceptable for you. Probably not if it had been your dad with explosives a la Flavor Flave.
- Agreed. But you do admit strap-on bombs aren’t exactly an innovation?
And let’s split hairs about the 911 call. Say Pinetti didn’t make it himself. Is the procedure that let him die correct, or are you just supporting bureaucracy?
They get arrested, pattern or no. It’s established here in CA, as well as in CO.
Try and keep up, dear. It was figurative, strictly for the purposes of this debate. People who think a bank robber is worth less than a banker are obviously viewing the 14th differently from me.
Sorry, Public Enemy fans. Flava Flav.
Um, if you’re a mentally-functioning adult, you have every right to refuse medical treatment until you sit there and die. At least in the US.
Cite. I had trouble finding a cite that went into more detail, but in the US, it falls under 14th amendment protections.
I’m adding this to my list for the next “Things you thought everyone knew” along with HOW FUCKING HARD IT IS TO DIFFUSE A BOMB.
Could you please provide a link to this policy? If it is established in those places it certainly isn’t universal, so your assumption about what would happen in PA is based on a faulty premise.
Wow. You’re just shamelessly making shit up at this point. You’re right – some people do view the 14th differently in that they don’t make shit up and say that’s what the 14th Amendment stands for.
You said: “Why can’t you get as angry at the wanton abuse of Equal Protection? Are you so willing to let a key point in our 14th Amendment slip through our collective fingers?” That’s not talking about something “figuratively.” In an earlier post you said “No Tuckerfan, I don’t want death of officers, I want accountability. I want Equal Protection Under the Law. If you live in the US, you should demand it.” You are clearly equating the conduct of the officers with a violation of Equal Protection.
You appear to have become emotionally involved in being “right” rather than listening to others. Your latest argument is a prime example. You’ve cited the 14th Amendment more than once as the reason for your outrage. But the 14th Amendment doesn’t say what you think it says so you change strategies and say that wasn’t really your argument. People might listen to you if you appeared willing to concede a point that is obvious to everybody. Arguing to protect your ego isn’t a great strategy.
So, please tell me how the conduct of the officers violated the 14th Amendment.
There was not 40 minutes for the bomb squad to arrive. The police arrived at 37 minutes. However, from then they had to discover the nature of the threat, take the neccessary immediate precaustions, and then alert bomb squad. Given the implied presence of locking mechanisms, it was likely impossibelf or the police to remove the device, and there was a strong threat that tampering would cause (or indirectly trigger, if the true criminal was hiding with a remote) an explosion. The Bomb Squad had then to assemble, grab their gear, and move to the target location. That is at least 10 +5 +10 = 25 minutes at a minimum.
Another Q - no reprt has mentioned what happened to the money. I suspect the police are keeping a lid on that right now.
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The paramedics likely did not know their subject was linked to the other case in any way.
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I have no idea what the law is where you live, but here, and everywhere else I know of has no such law as you described. In fact, I suspect it would be illegal itself.
I said the cops came within 3 minutes after being called. Who knows when they were called.
Dead Badger said it best
I can’t say it any better then that.
No they shouldn’t. I can’t imagine many other things being as scrutinized as police department policy as it has evolved over the past 100 years or so. Now I’m not saying it’s perfect, of course it isn’t, but the existence of the bomb squad is obviously for a reason. Don’t you think that if giving every police officer bomb training was more practical then having a specialized squad, that some police department in the world would try it? People study this shit for a living, military minds examine the best ways to deal with this, and the mistakes of 100 years have refined the process. Perhaps in this one unique instance the rigidity of the process cost someone a life, but I bet a hell of a lot more have been saved over the years. Of course if there’s something in all your omniscience that we should please feel free to share with us.
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Not only acceptable, I find it amazing that a highly specialized bomb disposal team can be dispatched pretty much anywhere in the country within say two hours. I bet billions of other people would love that.
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I would imagine that almost every homemade bomb is unique. They don’t stamp these things from a template ya know.
oh, come on - Keanau Reeves did it, how hard can it be?? after all, we know from Lethal Weapon 2, Speed and Blown Away that not only is it pretty damn easy to do (clip one wire in most cases), that pretty much every mid size city in the US has, or should have, an entire squad of available bomb experts at their disposal, capable of being dispatched to any scene in the area within minutes.
right???***
*** smile omitted to week out the sarcasm impaired.
Oh no, they’re twisting my words. Twisting, I tells you.
Figurative: the juxtaposition of a) the statements of a Doper that a bank robber is less important than a banker and b) the 14th Amendment.
And yes, I want Equal Protection under the Law. Plain and simple. You should too, if you live in the US. I wanted accountability from the officers.
I’ll try, but please don’t hold up the debate because of it. I have personal experience in the matter, in both states – I know from discussions it’s likely a corollary to the Domestic Abuse Policy.
World Eater, Badger I am satisfied and pleased with your skill. Thank you for a lovely debate. I will continue to expect the best from the cops, but in the future, I won’t be so eager to hammer on them for 25+ minutes’ lack of response.
I do understand this, however. The “Golden Two” is a somewhat well-established timeframe to get your message across to the bank, grab the loot and get going. I believe I first read about it in “The Anarchist’s Cookbook,” but we all know that’s not exactly respectable reading. I think it’s utterly possible this fellow was in and out and on with his life in about 3.5 minutes – one of the reasons the cops got him so close to el banco.
I would expect reasonable Dopers to be a little shocked if the police weren’t aware there was a bomb immediately after the bank was robbed.
Rysler: And I’m not saying we should all know how to defuse a bomb. Simple tautology on your part, enough to weaken the casual reader…
http://www.sonoma-county.org/cvrems/pdf/draft/patient.pdf
Here’s some information about the patient having in the right to refuse medical treatment from an ambulance. This is in California. No where does it say anything about them being arrested if they refuse.
You see, there’s this thing called freedom. A doctor, or EMT, or nurse or anyone cannot force a competent person to have a medical proceedure done if they don’t want it. It’s called “consent.”
Pretty cool, eh?
autz It’s not about consent, it’s about the 911 call. I was apparently under the misapprehension that Pinetta called 911 himself, not that the ambulance just happened by his house… Thanks for playing, eh?
Well I think the crux of it is we are trying to make sense of a non-sensical situation.
Sometimes the cops don’t respond quickly enough (this case), and sometimes they respond too quickly (9/11).
Sometimes things are out of our hands.
Mr. B, do you have a cite for your timeline? Having read back through the thread, it seems to be a) unsubstantiated by the news articles posted, b) inconsistent with what you said earlier and c) not on any article I can google. Can you justify your 37 minutes?
Previewing, I see that you’re basing it on what you know about the golden rules of bank robbery. Assuming (as you appear to be) that this man was put up to the robbery under duress, don’t you think that assuming he carried it out in the perfect minimum time is a little unrealistic? Unless the unknown bomber thoughtfully provided him with a copy of the anarchist’s cookbook, I suspect a distressed pizza delivery man with a bomb around his neck might have other things on his mind than optimum thievery.
My apologies for the diffuse/defuse thing.
Cite.
Having 911 called does not waive your Constitutional rights to refuse treatment.
Thank YOU for playing.
So you just threw in an unrelated sentence about the 14th Amendment in a post about police conduct? Okey dokey.
Here’s another juxtaposition: a) the statement of a Doper that a bank robber is less important than a banker and b) the 3rd Amendment.
What does my juxtaposition have in common with yours? Answer: b) is completely unrelated to a) in both statements.
The conduct of the police in this instance does not implicate the 14th Amendment. You seem to at least concede that by no longer arguing it. But a statement by a Doper doesn’t implicate the 14th Amendment, either. It looks to me like you tried to throw in a constitutional argument and see if it stuck. It didn’t, and it’s time to abandon it and all the related “you don’t understand what I’m saying” stuff related to it.
The 14th Amendment is irrelevant to this issue. Period.
I also await the cite about arresting people for refusing treatment. I won’t hold up the debate on it, but it would be nice to see some support for your statement.
Um, not to hijack this “debate” back to the original story, but I’m surprized that no one has mentioned this yet (from this story that was linked to earlier):
Sounds to me like he activated the bomb himself, if I’m reading it right.