Man of Steel - anyone seen it?(open spoilers after the first post)

Did you miss the part where he was overwhelmed as a child and ran into the closet and used his heat vision on the handle to keep the teacher out while the kids were calling him a freak? Did you miss the part where Pete Ross (the fat red-headed kid) was making fun of him, he saved him, then in another flash back he offered him a hand up after other kids were picking on him? And his father talked to him about not hitting the kids. They had several scenes establishing that he was bullied heavily as a kid and his father taught him never to respond in kind, but it also seemed clear that his way of getting back at people without hurting them was precisely to be passive aggressive. That’s why he didn’t hit the guy in the bar that poured beer on him, but then trashed his truck. It’s also why he had the argument with his father shortly before he died. And it’s exactly why when Zod threatened his mom he went completely overboard, because he could FINALLY respond in kind, and why he was contented to see him in pain being overwhelmed by his senses.

Zod wasn’t a maniac, at least not until the very last scene. Zod’s entire purpose in existing was to protect the Kryptonian people and, when you take that into consideration with the understanding that it’s his sole purpose for existing, a lot of what he was doing makes perfect sense. He was absolutely right that the Kryptonian council had led them into ruin, and he was doing what he thought he had to to help his people survive, which was to remove from power those who had led his people to ruin, get the codex and the other tools he needed to establish a new Krypton. The only real difference between his and Jor-El’s approach to the council’s poor decision was that when Jor-El was denied access to the codex he just went and took it and sent his son off with it, whereas Zod was more direct and was willing to take it by force.

The other thing was that differentiated them was the Jor-El hoped that the future Kryptonians could live alongside humans, whereas Zod was willing to take the steps necessary to preserve his people, even if it meant wiping out other people. But that also makes sense, considering Jor-El was a scientist and a hopeful visionary, while Zod is a militarist.

In fact, one of the more subtle points in the story was when Kal-El and Zod first met. Superman had just discovered his people, but was wary, and Zod greeted him warmly. There was, at least for a brief moment, the hope that they could be friends, and if he had been able to fish the codex’s location out of Superman, he never would have threatened his mom and, hell, he may well have been able to get the codex out of him and they wouldn’t have become enemies until he’d realized he was willing to destroy the Earth to revive Krypton.

Really, Zod didn’t become a maniac until after they’d destroyed the World Engine and Genesis Chamber and sent the other Kryptonians back into the Phantom Zone. But, really, can you blame a guy whose sole purpose in existing is taken away from him for going mad and wanting to exact revenge? It wasn’t until that last scene that he truly became a bad guy. Up to that point, he may not have quite been a good guy, but he had a noble cause, just as an ammoral militarist, he was willing to go to whatever extreme he felt was necessary to best assure that end.

Now, sure, Superman always saw him as a monster, as we saw from the semi-dream sequence, but that was just from his perspective, because he saw his willingness to kill humanity as horrifying, rightfully so. But the key point is, up until the very end, Zod always believed that he was doing the right thing.

I didn’t miss it but I found it hard to believe that Clark not once, not ever lashed out in any way. He never once pushed a kid too hard and tossed the kid 100 yards. He never once yelled “shut up” so loud that the sonic boom popped someone’s ear drum. He never once glared at someone too menacingly and his laser vision left someone with 3rd degree burns. I want THOSE repercussions to explain why Clark has to resort to passive aggressiveness. Not merely because Costner told him to.

Zod’s plan all along was to exterminate the human race and have Earth all to himself. That’s cartoon evil. It’d be much more logical to rule humans than to eradicate humans. We’ve got Venus to the left and Mars to the right. If all Zod wanted was real estate, there are other courses of action. On paper, ignoring the big picture - sure, saving Kryptonians was a noble cause but his execution was pure nonsensical evil.

I don’t know how subtle it was to have Dream-superman drown in a sea of human skulls. I also don’t know how warmly it was to demand his surrender over the airwaves and taking along Lois Lane as a hostage pretty much just because. If they wanted to soften up Zod they would have. They didn’t.

Zod can believe he’s in the right all he wants but it doesn’t make him right. He had no intent to negotiate, explain, or justify his actions to humans. He was just going to do his thing and if the indigenous people of this planet don’t like it - who cares? It’s like taking out an anthill to tend a garden.

One thing I didn’t understand–why did all the other Krypton colonies fail and why did Zod think the Earth colony would be any different?

I couldn’t figure out the skull thing. Zod was trying to be persuasive, but then at the end of the sort-of-dream, presents such a horrific image. Maybe it was supposed to be that Zod, being genetically predisposed toward thinking of violence as a solution, finds imagery like that to be glorious rather than horrific, and naturally expected Superman to feel the same way? That doesn’t seem likely, though–Zod’s not stupid and surely even with genetic engineering Kryptonians continue to understand (indeed, would probably understand emphatically) that different people think differently. So in the end, I just didn’t get that. Made me feel like something had been cut or something.

I was reluctantly dragged to see this over the weekend by some friends. I like the first 2 Christopher Reeves Superman movies and read the comics a little when I was younger, but I had no desire to see this movie in the theater after Superman Returns.

I was pleasantly surprised how this movie turned out. It wasn’t great by any means, but it was a fun watch. IMO Superman is kind of a hard character to keep interesting but they managed to keep my attention.

I do have one question though. When Superman is trying to stop the World Engine in the ocean, he was weakened by what I assumed was Kryptonian type atmosphere spewing from the top. He then flies underneath the beam at the bottom and smashes his way through. Did I miss something about him regaining his strength or did he just get aggravated and smash through?

I don’t think it was necessary. We saw him lose control of his powers once. What would we have gained to see him lose it again, but hurt someone? In that scene they did mention that he wasn’t allowed to play with other kids. I imagine they probably kept him out of school and away from other kids until he at least had some sort of control over his powers. Besides, of the people I know who are quite passive aggressive, it’s precisely those sorts who were really well behaved as kids.

I disagree that that was ever his plan, until the very end. To him, humans were completely irrelevant. Asking him to reconsider his terraforming plan would be like asking someone who is building a house to reconsider because there’s an anthill on the spot. So, sure, he’s evil from OUR perspective, but by that same notion, that human who doesn’t consider the ants is evil from their perspective. Hell, Faora said to Superman that he was weak because he had morals. He wasn’t doing it to be cruel or evil, he wasn’t considering the moral implications at all. He was an ammoral soldier. I think it makes him misguided, but really, for a genetically engineered super soldier, I can see that sort of mentality being important.

And, really, if you are able to ignore the moral implications of wiping out the human race, why shouldn’t he choose Earth? It’s larger and has more resources than Mars or Venus.

I don’t think Zod intended to see Kal-El as an adversary. I think he, perhaps naively so, believing so strongly in his point of view, thought that when he explained himself, he would join with him. It is exactly what caused the rift between Zod and Jor-El, Zod seemed almost baffled that the logic of his ways wasn’t as obvious to Jor-El, or Kal-El, as it was to him and his fellow soldiers. He was, after all, genetically engineered and trained to be a soldier, not a scientist, philosopher, or politician. He even forgave him when Faora berated him for not addressing him as General Zod, explained why he felt weak, and tried to explain to him straight-forward why he was there and what happened to Krypton.

As for the skulls, I’ll touch on it more in a bit, but I don’t think he put them there.

I don’t think he was right, but I do think that someone who truly believes they’re doing the right thing is hard to classify as cartoon evil. And, really, when he sees humans as, at best, a nuisance, why should he feel any need to negotiate? After all, he’s not a politician, he saw his order as saving his people; he’s not going to question that. It may be a misguided view of humanity, it may be callous, but I can’t see it as cartoon evil.

I do know that the expansionism is part of at least one of the comic book continuities, but I don’t know a whole lot about it. In the film, at least, they mentioned something about running out of resources. Perhaps they expanded too fast and spread too thin and weren’t able to support it? Maybe not all of the outposts failed, they just lost contact with Krypton over time, and Zod just didn’t find the ones that were still around. Maybe there is more to the story left to be told in a sequel; like Brainiac could have had a hand in ending the expansionism, or possibly even Darkseid or the Guardians.

My interpretation was that that whole scene was supposed to be viewed as a dream. Zod was talking about building on top of Earth matter of factly and it didn’t even occur to him that Kal-El would have that level of attachment to humanity. So it was Kal-El’s subconscious reaction to him now seeing Zod as a monster. It was strong enough that he was overwhelmed and fell into the skull. After all, it seems that the theme is that the only thing that really holds him back isn’t a lack of power, but a lack of confidence and, in that case, being so overwhelmed by what he saw as a truly monstrous person.

I think it’s mostly playing on the general idea that Superman is as strong as he needs to be. He doubted that he would have the strength because of the atmosphere, but once he lost that doubt, he still had enough strength to do what he needed to do.

Thanks, that has been bugging me since Saturday night. I really thought I had missed something.

Yeah, to me, Zod really did seem like one of those “good guy” bad guys. Like Magneto.

Maybe he’s been reading Thor. Ooh, burn, DC!

I’d say a much worse than that. At least he doesn’t have the excuse of surviving the Holocaust and wanting to avoid a repeat.

He was a traitorous, fascist eugenicist. And that was before his planet blew up.

No. We are not evil from the ants’ perspective, because the ants do not have a perspective. Neither the individual ant nor the nest as a whole has the capacity to think in such terms, or ever will.

I think the best explanation is that, for the universe of this movie, just then a Caped Crusader was becoming famous in Gotham City.

Alan Scott?

No, Mr. Scarlet. :stuck_out_tongue:

And today I learned that three or more caped heroes resided in Gotham city.

No Capes! Didn’t you hear about Stratogale! April 23rd, '57! Cape caught in a jet turbine!
Metaman, express elevator! Dynaguy, snagged on takeoff! Splashdown, sucked into a vortex!

As more of a Batman fan than a Superman fan, I’m surprised by how much I liked it. People are right about a bunch of the flaws - hitting way they audience over the head with the Jesus stuff, the death of Zod, the shaky cam, the way some of the scenes went over the top, Superman’s inconsistent caring about people - and maybe I’ll add some: they really overdid it with the September 11th-style imagery when Metropolis was under attack and they basically ruined all of downtown, and the aftereffects of that attack would be horrible to contemplate (I imagined a lot of respiratory disease); Perry White would have been fired from the Daily Planet for killing the biggest scoop in the history of humanity without so much as a by-your-leave with the publisher; Kevin Costner (good though he was) did not look 46; Zod masters some skills it took Superman a lifetime to learn and which were supposedly unique to him in no time flat just through force of will, which made Supes look kind of dumb; and now I’m forgetting some stuff. For all of that, I liked the designs, I liked the story, and maybe most importantly I liked Michael Shannon as Zod, and I think if you believe Zod’s devotion to Krypton, the story basically works.

Superman, tossed around by Zod in a way that inescapably brought The Incredibles to mind! Maybe they shouldn’t have done that.

Maybe they wanted to point that in the end Zod missed the wisdom of the ancients..

..♫♬ You don’t tug on Superman’s cape ♪ ..

There was also a Lone Ranger trailer. The Anchorman 2 trailer could be analogous for spitting into the wind.

I saw it on the weekend, and it left me unimpressed. To sum it up, I think the plot got a bit lost amongst the special effects. Anyway, it is always a bad sign when the villains’ characters appears to have much more heart than the hero’s. Zod, I can sympathise with. But Superman/Clark Kent? He is neither here nor there. Portrayal-wise, in the Superman lore, Lois Lane has black hair – how difficult would it have been to give the actress dark tresses like her comic book counterpart? The addition of this back story – this “prequel” if you will, to the Superman saga, has simply raise more questions about Supe keeps his identity a secret (a major plot point as far as he is concerned). IMO, the only character who exceeded expectations (and the Chistopher Reeve versions) was Jor-El. Russel Crowe did a far better job than Marlon Brando. Guess I’ll stick to the original superman versions for the time being.

There are definitely many faults with this movie, but seriously?

In the comics Jonathan Kent has white hair, Perry White isn’t black, Superman wears red pants and Jimmy Olsen isn’t a girl, but it really doesn’t matter