Did someone, somewhere make the concious decision that the US would do everything in it’s power to encourage China to become a participant in the world economy, and promote the most rapid possible development of China? Was this an actual policy decision? Now sure back in the Reagan era China was at a cusp in it’s history where friendly US trade policies made a crucial difference in encouraging the PRC to reform it’s policies and hopefully democracy would follow the free market. But It almost seems like the US is killing itself to make China richer.
First of all I was quipping.
Second of all, I don’t believe for a second that some significant population of people are going to leave because we raise their marginal rate to 39.6 %or even 50%.
We cannot engage in race to the bottom taxation and survive as a modern western nation.
I don’t think we should chase anyone out. But I also don’t think we walk around on eggshells afraid of hurting their feeling either. Income tax rates are at their lowest since Herbert Hoover, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who think they should be able to continue to enjoy those rates at the cost of our economy.
I think its time we stopped deifying people who make a lot of money. They’re not going anywhere, they’re not unique special people with superpowers. For the most part, they are smart hardworking people but they wouldn’t have this sort of success anywhere else.
Remember Fabrice Tourre? he made $2,000,000 when he was 28. With very few exception, for every job like Fabrice had, there are dozens of folks that can do the job. The Fabrice’s of the world are fungible and plentiful, we only need a few of them and they touch a lot of money so we pay them very very well but there is nothing Fabrice had that any one of dozens of others wouldn’t have had if they had gotten the job instead of him. We don’t need to screw ourselves in the ass to entice the Fabrice’s of the world to stay.
Oh wait, but how about the small businessmen? What about them? People still come HERE to become small businessmen because the opportunity is here. My family is full of entrepreneurs and if the marginal rate jumped to 50%, they still wouldn’t abandon 100% of their income and leave the country in protest over the 50% income tax. Its not like they can easily recreate their success anywhere else.
Now once they have already gotten wealthy and aren’t really in the active income generating mode anymore, then sure they can go anywhere they want and rich folks have been moving to places like Monaco since I can remember. That’s why you’ve got to tax them while they are earning the money because you may not get another chance at collecting their fair share of the tax revenue.
You must be new. Its pretty much how conservatives win arguments.
The underlying assumption is that the market is equitable, it distributes income according to the value contributed. This has never been the case, less so today than ever before.
We try to balance efficiency with equity, in the last 40 years we have basically thrown equity overboard and it hasn’t been a total disaster but when the people who earn most of the money cry about paying most of the taxes, it should fall on deaf ears.
Name ONE reputable economist who thinks that free trade with a country that manipulates its currency and does all the other stuff China does, is good over the long run.
Even Milton Friedman would condemn free trade with China.
You know when America had a top marginal tax rate of 92%, we were still doing pretty well. Taxes don’t have the sort of effect on behaviour that everyone seems to think.
I have a partner that loudly proclaimed that they would reduce how much they worked if his taxes were raised. Now that this is imminent, he doesn’t say this so loudly anymore. He merely gripes and complains about how we are stifling the small businessman (NONE of his clients (or acquaintances) could be mistaken for a small businessman and yet he seems to have his finger on the pulse of the small businessman population).
BUT BUT BUT, you have really low tax rates for corporations and the rich, doesn’t that mean that London should be cleared out before Dublin loses a single dollar of productivity, after all, the people who create jobs are going to move to Dublin right?
The problem with conservatives is that they think the economy is too frikking simple. They latch onto a concept and run with it until they bury the needle. Low taxes spur economic activity? Well lets keep lowering them until we get rid of them altogether, heck maybe we can make an argument for negative taxes (well actually at the lower income levels we do have a negative income tax rate).
I totally agree but free trade really has to go both ways for it to work. People used to think that the impact of trade imbalances would be eliminated by shifting currency values and all sorts of other stuff that is pretty theoretically sound, until someone stops playing by the rules. People didn’t think you could peg a currency the way that the Chinese have done it but little did they realize that Hong Kong had been doing it for fucking decades and had perfected how to use currency manipulation to their advantage.
Why do you reply to my post with something completely unrelated? If you reply to a post you should have some directly relevant to say to that not just some random rant. Perhaps you are of the opinion that Ireland would not have, like Greek did, experienced problems with borrowing money? Then say this.
Hold up. Shodan is misinterpreting what I said.
I said we need to kick the bad actors out and keep the good ones. I did not say all rich are bad actors.
Let’s make sure that one is set straight. I can’t accuse anyone of lying on this forum but Shodan sure as hell has twisted what I said beyond what any rational person could interpret of it.
Well, you aren’t very good at stating or defending any point in particular, but here is what you said -
You then later agreed that Bill Gates was a good example of the kind of person you didn’t want in the US, “bad actors who are taking away American jobs and evading taxes through tax havens”.
You aren’t very good at sticking to any one point in particular, but that commonly happens when the point you propose is stupid. I didn’t follow the drivel you posted about how we don’t need the jobs that Microsoft provides because Linux is better than any other OS, but I didn’t read it very closely.
Then came the part where you rejected what 90%+ of economists agree on as opinion, and what one economist thinks is gospel, and it became clear that you are in over your head but don’t yet realize it.
Regards,
Shodan
That’s not saying all rich people. That’s talking about the ones who ship our jobs overseas and evade taxes.
Yeah, and if you had any reasoning skills you’d realize that these new entrepreneurs would STILL GET RICH. But without making a mess of the country.
And? Bill Gates is not God. He stole his intellectual property. And there’s always Steve Jobs. Or are you saying that’s untrue?
You’re very good at twisting words. Probably because you need a straw man to attack and can’t take on a real opponent.
Obviously your reading comprehension is lacking, too.
I said that Microsoft, and indeed the entire software industry, is in danger of decimation due to the rise of Linux and Open Source. We may not HAVE to do anything about Microsoft, Gates or Ballmer; many of those jobs could be lost to free as in freedom and free as in beer Open Source software.
Your definition of drivel must be something you can’t comprehend.
Still appealing to authority, I see. “But they all said!” Wow, that sounds like a cowardly tantrum more than an argument to me.
These same economists failed to predict the housing collapse and the financial panic that ensued.
Consensus does not make truth. Apparently you’re in over your head when it comes to the task of critical thinking. If the crowd agrees, you just go with it.
Huh? We have the highest GDP per capita in the world except for a handful of countries with vast energy resources and small populations. We are winning. We have the best economy, the best military, and the loudest voice in international diplomacy. The United States is the only superpower in the world, and one recession isn’t going to change that.
I notice you clipped off the part where you said what kind of rich people you wanted to drive out of the country -
OK - describe how Bill Gates has exploited his workers, and damaged the country, but created 8% of the jobs in Washington state and generating $9 billion in direct and indirect revenue for that state alone. And none of your horseshit about Linux - back up what you said. You claim he has done all this damage, but you cannot come up with one fucking piece of evidence.
So let’s see it. Show how Microsoft exploits its workers and creates low-paying jobs. Show all the times they have been convicted of violating the environmental laws. Cite the number of times Microsoft has been convicted of tax evasion.
What does this have to do with trade tariffs and driving people out of the country for creating jobs?
Gosh - on the one hand, we have an overwhelming consensus of professonals who spend their lifetimes studying a subject, and on the other we got - well, you, who cannot make a coherent argument and contradicts himself with distressing regularity.
Gee, tough call.
Well, if that is your only test, then cite where the one economist you cited predicted the collapse of the housing bubble.
Go ahead - I’ll wait.
Regards,
Shodan
That’s because I expected you to read it and realize that I didn’t say kick them all out.
Temper, temper! Just because your arguments are exploding in your face doesn’t mean you have to resort to swearing. 
I’m going to continue to bring up Linux because it is a commercial threat to Microsoft that Microsoft has tried to use fraudulent means to stop. I already cited for you the fact that Microsoft falsely claimed Linux violates over 200 Microsoft patents and that none of this has gone to court. I cited that for you.
Oh, really? Where shall I start? Microsoft is bringing jobs to Washington state and $9 billion in revenue to Washington state at the cost of other sectors of the industry and jobs in other places, not to mention innovation: which is a natural result of a monopoly for which Microsoft was found guilty.
That should be a big enough cited fact for you.
That, too. 2000 jobs lost to India as far back as 2004. It’s probably worse now.
And on the other hand we have you, who makes up false accusations of “incoherence” and “contradictions” but who has failed to post even one cite in support of your point. The only thing you can do is let others do your thinking for you, twist people’s words and throw temper tantrums when your point blows up in your face.
He probably didn’t… which is why I think for myself and look to history for lessons.
So far history is not having your back in this argument.
You’ve run out of arguments at this point. And with all your tantrum throwing, personal attacks and childish cursing, it’s time to put you on ignore. You will behave like an adult or I will not waste further time on you.
So why should I believe a word he says? If you complain about arguments from authority, don’t expect to be taken seriously when you do exactly the same thing.
If you want to continue to drag up irrelevancies, I can’t stop you.
Low-paying? Did you even read your own cite?
As xtisme points out, Netscape did exactly the same thing that Microsoft did.
Those are “the rich” that you claimed you wanted to kick out of the country. And you agreed that BIll Gates was an example. Do you stand by that statement? Even though you have failed to produce any evidence that he has evaded taxes, or do you want to get rid of him for the heinous sin of creating jobs in Washington state, across the US, as well as in the rest of the world?
Look, I understand your difficulties - what you claim about punishing people for creating jobs is pretty self-evidently stupid, your ideas on protectionism are rejected by all serious thinkers, people aren’t falling for your attempts to change the subject and blow smoke up our collective asses.
This isn’t one of those anti-globalist marches where college dropouts with hemp shirts and BO do original street theater about the plight of unemployed spotted owls or something. You actually have to makse sense here.
You might want to try that.
Regards,
Shodan
The same goes to you, Le Jacquelope: you will not insult other posters in this forum, you will not tell people you are putting them on your ignore list, and you will not junior moderate - report a post if you think someone else is breaking the rules. These are punishable by warnings and I expect you won’t do this again.
Acknowledged. You do realize I did not start the insults, right? Or are others allowed to insult me and I cannot return in kind?