Absolutely - and it’s the correct thing to do - otherwise, the slippery slope has men causing miscarriages to get out of child support payments.
As others have rightly said- the difference here is one of choice - and the status of the unborn fetus is entirely in the mother’s realm of choice - and I have no issue with harsh punishment for those that would cause harm to said fetus outside of said choice for the woman.
I see no problem hitting the guys who try it with assault charges that can come with several years in prison and hefty fines. That should dissuade most and the ones not dissuaded likely wouldn’t be by stiffer penalties.
But I think you are missing the point of the OP to try and square this crime with legal abortion.
I see no disconnect. I heartily endorse the court’s sentence, but I would prefer that it was characterized as a violation of the pregnant woman’s sanctity and not a violation of the unborn child’s rights. The question of whether or not this life is precious or disposable is hers. If she opts to end it, that’s one thing; if anyone else opts to end it without her consent, that should be a high crime and treated as such.
nt missing the point at all - you square it by noting the intent of the person ‘causing’ the abortion.
Is your life dependent on how much someone else values it?
You are definitely missing the point of the OP.
Well, if my life consists of being inside another person’s body, I’m okay with it.
Sorry - I should have said ‘right’ not ‘intent’.
Still missing it…
This is an easy one to punt back but since I am pro choice I won’t give the others ammunition and it is not really the gist of the thread so you win the point.
The fetus is clearly human. Enough in society have determined that a human at that level of development is unworthy of intrinsic protections.
then quit playing games and explain how so -
It’s a crime against the woman. Forcing her to have an involuntary abortion is a crime just like forcing her to have involuntary sex is a crime. Just because that same woman might consent to having an abortion or to having sex in different circumstances does not make it okay to force her to do it when she doesn’t consent.
Which is what I said in my previous post. When I said the issue was lack of consent, did you seriously think I was suggesting we ask the fetus for consent? Or for her husband’s consent or her father’s or her pastor’s? It was obvious whose consent was missing and therefore who the victim of the crime was.
I can put my dog /horse down if he’s been grievously injured and it’s deemed appropriate.
That doesn’t mitigate my abusing or killing my animal, even attempting to kill it, for any other reason. Nor should it.
This isn’t different from that, in my opinion.
The ability to legally kill my pet does NOT open the door to doing so being okay, regardless of circumstances.
Jeez, this thread is frustrating.
No one is arguing that it shouldn’t be a crime to try and secretly cause a woman to abort. The questions are, as I see them: Is it a crime against the woman or the fetus? Is the crime assault or homicide (or murder? Are they the same in this case?). That’s the point of this thread.
Saying, “yes, this guy should definitely go to jail for the despicable thing he did” is missing the point.
(Sorry for the double post)
I should clarify – the law today says that it is a crime against the fetus. So, where I wrote “Is it a crime…”, etc., I should have written, “Should it be a crime…”, etc.
The OP is asking, I believe, should that be the case? And, if you think it should be, how does that square with abortion rights?
OP – hopefully, I’m not misrepresenting your position.
You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor and I agree to give you one. Fine
You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor, but do not agree to give you one. You are not a doctor, but you drug me and take out one of kidneys, and get a doctor to put it into you.
Not fine with that.
And, neither is anyone. Here’s the question in the OP (I believe). Should that be a crime against you or (to stretch your analogy to the breaking point) should it be a crime against the kidney? The way the law is currently written, it’s a crime against the, uh, kidney.
The analogy, like many abortion-related analogies, really breaks down.
I have no issue with it being a crime against the fetus - in this case the fetus ‘has rights to life’ so long as the mother chooses to allow it.
Seems to me that people want to make a bigger deal of it than it is - The mother is free to abort carrying the fetus, no one else is allowed to choose that for her (save a bonafide medical emergency where the mother is unable to answer one way or the other (unconscious) ) . Having an accident (car wreck,for example) where the fetus is lost is very different than attempting to force an abortion that would not happen otherwise.
I was going to post that analogy as well so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch.