I phrase the thread title thus because the position of anti-abortion persons seems obvious. That said, I don’t wish to debate the morality, ethics, or legality of abortion in this thread.
And now I’ll reiterate with a hair more detail. If I commit an assault on a pregnant woman that results in the death of her fetus, should I be charged with murdering the fetus?
If your answer is yes, should it matter how far along the woman was in the pregnancy–that is, if the fetus was not viable, does that change your answer? Does it matter if I knew the woman was pregnant? Does it matter if intended to kill the fetus?
I’m okay with it as an aggravating factor, as long as it can be proved the assailant knew the woman was pregnant (likely supported by her being obviously pregnant at the time). He’ll still have to be convicted of the underlying assault charge.
The reason being to discourage attacks on pregnant women, because the fetus might not die but be impaired for life, or an injury sufficient to the woman to kill the fetus might leave per permanently infertile, or if the assailant happens to be the father (which is entirely likely) then beating up a pregnant wife or girlfriend should not be seen as a way to escape one’s responsibilities.
Depends on the language of the relevant statute. If there is a specific provision that would include a fetus as a potential victim, then the charge may be brought.
No, because “murder” is the killing of a person, and a fetus is not a person. It’s potentially a person, but not yet a person, just a collection of genetically distinct cells.
Even if the answer were “yes”, I’m pretty sure the murderer would have to know that the woman was pregnant and intended to kill the fetus in order for it to be considered murder, rather than manslaughter or something.
I’m not the Rhymer, but I’m pretty sure he’s asking whether it should be a crime (morally or ethically), not whether charges should be brought under the law. More like whether there should be a law.
Then murder would be inappropriate because I lack the necessary intent. It was accidental. Might not be charged with anything. Might get charged with some flavor of negligent homicide if the situation was such that I shouldn’t oughta have been tossing around monkey wrenches near pregnant wenches.
I knew Oak was yanking me. I just threw the wrench back at him elsewhere.
Oak, responding to your earlier post as if you weren’t yanking me, do not such laws run the risk of reducing abortion rights? That is, are they not part of incremental assaults on Roe v. Wade?
Okay, I’ve always wondered about this kind of murder charge. I suppose you could say that if the woman was intending to give birth to the embryo/fetus, then she is exercising her right to control her body. If you interfere with that, it’s murder.
What happens if you just happen to whack the woman while she’s on her way to the abortion clinic?
I’m not Oak, but I think that any law that hints that fetuses are people deserving of rights, and killing those fetuses can be considered murder, is definitely an assault on Roe v. Wade. If I were anti-abortion [pro-life, whatever your preferred term], I would take the approach that, obviously if fetuses can be murdered, the law must consider them to be people, and people deserve a right-to-life, equal protection, etc.
Only people can be murdered (not animals, not cancer cells that contain human DNA, etc.) in the eyes of the law (as far as I can tell).
But, I don’t think murder is the crime of stopping someone’s exercise of her right to control her body. It’s the deliberate killing of a person.
I don’t like those laws, but the reason behind them is obvious to me – first call a fetus a person, then use that to further an anti-abortion [pro-life, whatever] agenda.
Yes; that’s the point of defining it as “murder”, to chip away at abortion rights.
As for me, I wouldn’t define it as murder. It deserves an additional charge, but not that. Probably it should count as it’s own crime, rather than being shoehorned into assault or murder or whatever. “Unlawful Fetal Assault” maybe ? Although that sounds like you’ve just been mugged by a bunch of fetuses . . .
Did you mean to ask this of pro-lifers instead of pro-choicers? I’d think most pro-choicers would say “of course not.”
Assuming you meant pro-lifers, and assuming that most pro-lifers would base their view on what the Bible says, then Exodus 21:22 says that causing a miscarriage in the way you described requires that the assaulter pay a fine, if the woman is not otherwise hurt. If the woman is killed, the punishment is death. At least according to this part of the Bible, fetus killing is not equivalent to murder.
I was playing devil’s advocate (and goofin’ off) I agree with you, actually. If it’s not a person, it’s not a person. If it falls outside the legal gestation period for abortion, then it’s murder. However, when I hear these cases on the news, I always wonder how far along she was and if the charge stuck once they got to court.
Murder is a very specific legal term. No, killing an unborn child should not be “murder.” It should be “involuntary abortion” or similar. Otherwise you run into a host of problems.
Suppose a pregnant woman goes horseback riding. Or goes on a roller coaster. Or gets into a fender bender, or slips on some stairs or some ice. If you automatically equate “the death of a fetus” with “murder” then any tiny accident, any lapse of concentration, any minor negligence is suddenly elevated into a capital crime. It would mean there is a whole class of people who are so extra-specially protected by law that anything whatever you do to them could be murder, from serving the wrong drink, to getting her angry, to standing too close in a crowd. Murder! Oh noes.
The counter-argument goes, if killing a fetus is always murder, why don’t we prosecute for miscarriage?
No. It seems obvious to me that a pro-lifer is going to say Yes, as the heart of that position is the notion that personhood begins at conception. But I can see pro-choicers being ambivalent on the issue, because I am pro-choice, and I am ambivalent.
Just to pick a random state, here’s a relevant Mississippi Statute:
*
SEC. 97-3-37. Homicide; killing of an unborn child; “human being” includes unborn child at every stage og gestation from conception until live birth for purposes of offenses of assault and homicide; “unborn child” defined; intentional injury to pregnant woman; penalties; provisions of section not applicable to legal medical procedures, including abortion.
(1) For purposes of the offenses enumerated in this subsection (1), the term “human being” includes an unborn child at every stage of gestation from conception until live birth and the term “unborn child” means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb:
(a) Section 97-3-7, simple and aggravated assault and domestic violence;
(b) Section 97-3-15, justifiable homicide;
(c) Section 97-3-17, excusable homicide;
(d) Section 97-3-19, capital murder;
(e) Section 97-3-27, homicide while committing a felony;
(f) Section 97-3-29, homicide while committing a misdemeanor;
(g) Section 97-3-33, killing a trespasser unnecessarily;
(h) Section 97-3-35, killing without malice in the heat of passion;
(i) Section 97-3-45, homicide by means of a dangerous animal;
(j) Section 97-3-47, all other homicides;
(k) Section 97-3-61, poisoning with intent to kill or injure.
(2) A person who intentionally injures a pregnant woman is guilty of a crime as follows:
(a) If the conduct results in a miscarriage or stillbirth by that individual, a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than twenty (20) years or a fine of not more than Seven Thousand Five Hundred Dollars ($7,500.00), or both.
(b) If the conduct results in great bodily harm to the embryo or fetus, a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than twenty (20) years or a fine of not more than Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), or both.
(c) If the conduct results in serious or aggravated physical injury to the embryo or fetus, a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than one (1) year or a fine of not more than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or both.
(d) If the conduct results in physical injury to the embryo or fetus, a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than ninety (90) days or a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or both.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any legal medical procedure performed by a licensed physician or other licensed medical professional, including legal abortions, when done at the request of a mother of an unborn child or the mother’s legal guardian, or to the lawful dispensing or administration of lawfully prescribed medication.
SOURCES: Codes, Hutchinson’s 1848, ch. 64, art. 12, Title 3 (8); 1857, ch. 64, art. 172; 1871, Sec. 2635; 1880, Sec. 2883; 1892, Sec. 1156; 1906, Sec. 1234; Hemingway’s 1917, Sec. 964; 1930, Sec. 992; 1942, Sec. 2222. Amended by Laws 2000, Ch. 337, Sec. 1, SB2314; Laws, 2004, ch. 515, § 3, HB 352; Laws, 2004, ch. 521, § 1, SB 2869, eff from and after July 1, 2004.
*
Found here:
Note that Section 3 specifically exempts legal abortions from the other provisions. With that exclusion, I don’t see it as furthering attacks on Roe v. Wade.
Well, we’d be prosecuting God, which is problematic. If he exists he probably has sovereign immunity. And even if he doesn’t have sovereign immunity he has the whole omnipotent thing going on.
If you can persuade the Q Continuum to help bring him in, we can talk.