Who’s doing that?
No one in particular here, thankfully - apart from the assertion that he’s helped the Singapore police when there are statements coming out to the contrary, fo example. But reading the media flood over the past few days – I suspect there will be an opinion of martyrdom in some quarters. Poor young fool killed by the big bad government.
I hope I’m wrong, but I get cynical with age.
No, it’s not the end of it.
If there is a pit in the middle of a road with warning signs all around it saying “if you cross this line you will die” and some dumb fuck is stupid enough to cross the line and get killed I’m sorry, but he’s still a dumb fuck. Maybe that pit shouldn’t be there, maybe it was dug illegally by murderous rabid Bad Guys - it doesn’t matter. Mr. Dumb Fuck was warned and he chose to ignore that warning. It’s not like someone camoflagued the pit to trap the unwary.
Likewise, Singapore loudly announces that they do not tolerate certain actions and will kill those they catch in the act. You then have several choices:
- Don’t go to Singapore.
- If you go to Singapore, don’t break their laws
- If you go to Singapore and break their laws - boo-fucking-hoo, go ahead and try to get an exception made on your behalf. Good luck with that, you’ll need it.
The difference between terrorists in Iraq and the Singapore government is a simple one. The Iraqi Bad Guys are killing people because those people aren’t just like them. The Singaporean government isn’t killing anyone because of who/what they are, they are executing people for what they do. If you don’t want to be executed in Singapore then simply do not commit capital crimes there.
And yes, I DO think the punishment is excessive, however, even a person who is a professional drug courier in other parts of the world can avoid falling afoul of this law by the simple expedient of not transporting illegal drugs through Singapore.
Now, if someone had had a gun on this guy the whole time the heroin was in his possession, or had forcably implanted a half-kilo into his abdomen through illegal surgery I might buy the story Mr. Nguyen had no choice in the matter. That is not what happened. He chose to break the law. He got caught. He has been convicted and sentenced. In all likelihood he will be executived as sentenced.
I certainly support any attempt to bargain with the Singaporean government, or to ask for mercy or clemency, but I do not have any illusions it is likely to work.
First of all, not all societies believe a person is innocent until proven guilty. That assumption is your first mistake.
Second - there IS a difference between guilt and conviction. An innocent man may be wrongly convicted of a crime. Likewise, the criminal justice system may, through lack of evidence or other problem, fail to convict someone who did, indeed, commit a crime. That person is no less guilty for not having been convicted.
Actually, while I did grow up here, I lived almost my entire adult life elsewhere, and only moved back a few months ago.
And again, like I said, there are some pretty nasty drug dealers out there. Generally, the harder the drug and the harder the neighborhood, the harder the dealer. I knew one guy who went to prison for a double murder. It sure as hell wasn’t from a turf war, though. He thought his victims were undercover narcs. Ironically, they weren’t, but the person to whom he bragged about it the next day was, and he’s now serving a life sentence.
My point is that it’s not right to judge all dealers by the actions of some.
The guilt-by-association argument doesn’t work, either:
If you’re going to blame Dealer B for this, then I’m afraid you’re also going to have to blame the jewelry store at the mall for every fucked-up thing DeBeers ever did.
I disagree with your characterisation of Iraqi terrorists as killing Americans just because “those people aren’t just like them”. Here’s another example - if you don’t want to be stoned to death, don’t commit sexually licentious behaviour in a little village in Sudan. But if a countryman of yours does that, and is due to be brutally killed, would your attitude be that the “dumb fuck” deserves what he / she gets?
The presumption of innocence is a fundamental and universal human right. Without it, a criminal law system is worthless. Singapore’s British-inherited common law system encapsulates this in much the same way as does Australia’s (my country) and that of the US (I presume you are American). Where are there viable legal systems without the presumption?
If they do not convict, the person is not guilty. It’s as simple as that. This is what the presumption of innocence means, and it’s what our criminal law system is based on. See, for an example in your jurisdiction, Coffin v. The United States
Good morning.
The connection is - person goes into foreign country to perform something that they well know presents a high risk of death. Yes, it is the stupidity factor. He was very stupid to gamble his life in this way.
Mangetout said what I was thinking - both brothers have a gambling broblem.
Of course, this does not diminish the barbarism of a death sentence.
er… because, the Sudanese are going to… like… kill her? So she’s like, dead, dude? Not only that, but the American government is, the American government, and she’s an American citizen, and, you know, governments are sorta supposed to protect their citizens, otherwise why the holy bleeding FUCK do we have them?
And she’s a human being?
Gaah! :smack: :rolleyes: :eek: :mad:
Am I imagining it or have a significant number of people in the world popped arsehole pills?
Such a promising username too.
Err…I don’t know, really… Because she did nothing wrong and she’s going to be killed nevertheless?
How, exactly, do some of y’all expect the Australian government to bail the man out? Last I checked, Singapore is an independent country.
Another thing to those who say the Australian government isn’t doing anything: what do you call their requests for leniency?
Thank you for pointing out what most of us learn in grade school. That kind of ties into my whole “Your experiences with the random suburban dealer doesn’t give you special insight” theme.
What exactly do you think most dealers in a position of power would do with a narc? Invite them for tea and work the whole thing out over a nice game of whist? Do you really believe your lifer is the exception to the rule? If you do, then I would advise against hanging out with the dealers outside of Harrisburg. If you do, don’t wear your best shoes and make sure that all the credit cards in your wallet are already expired.
What makes you think I like it when jewelry stores buy from corrupt corporations? Drug dealers don’t get a pass just 'cause other people do it too. Once again, jewelry is legal here. If jewelry dealers were buying from DeBeers and shooting up my neighborhood, and killing people they thought were narcing on them right on my corner, I’d probably speak up against them too. As it is, the topic of this thread is drug dealers. And not the cool ones from Neverland, who seem to make up your social demographic either.
On a certain level, yes.
As I’ve said numerous times, I don’t agree with the death penalty. However, if you go to a remote little village in the Sudan and willfully and by your own choice commit an act that you have been repeatedly warned is a capital felony in that area… yes, you ARE a fucking idiot. That doesn’t matter if the felony is drug trafficking, sex outside of marriage, or wearing blue shoes on Tuesday - you fucked up. You broke the rules. You got caught.
It’s not up to YOU to decree the laws of a foreign land right or wrong - it IS your responsibility to keep out of trouble while traveling abroad.
Again, I would still think the penalty out of proportion to the crime, I would definitely support diplomatic intervention, official protests, pleas for mercy… but I would not advocate overthrowing a foreign government, invasion, or other strong-arm tactics to save one fucking idiot.
If this foreign territory repeatedly executes people for crimes most other nations do not consider crimes, or consider minor offenses, then perhaps sanctions are called for… but perhaps visitors should be strongly cautioned so no one can enter such areas in ignorance. Oh, wait - Singapore makes its stance very clear: Don’t Bring Drugs In Here.
There are no “universal” human rights outside of a particular society, all that poetic stuff written down in the late 1700’s aside. Throughout most of history your rights were what the authorities over you decided they were - if any.
Oh, I’m sorry - I see you are totally disregarding morality here and looking strictly at the law and legal convinction. Well, yes, under your definition there Jeffrey Dahmer was a completely innocent man - regardless of munching on former lovers he had performed amateur brain surgery on - until convicted of murder and canabalism. Point taken. Perhaps we should taken his prior clean record into account when sentencing him, gone easy on him, etc.
Do you know why Dahmer didn’t get the death penalty? Because he didn’t commit his crimes in a state with capital punishment. In fact, he went to some effort to make sure his conduct was completely legal in Illinois - because he didn’t want to die. So when necessary he duped his victims into coming to Wisconsin under their own free will, THEN he committed terrible acts upon them.
If Mr. Nguyen had exercised at least equal judgement he might be serving a long prison term rather than facing a hangman’s noose.
As far as his country defending him - is he worth starting a war over? No? Then he’s going to die. IS he worth starting a war over? Is his life worth invading another country and forcing its authorities to violate its laws? Because that’s what it sounds like some of you are asking.
So… if Mr. Nguyen was in prison in Australia for breaking Australian law, and Singapore came to your government and said “We don’t meet out that punishment for that crime - hand him over” what would your reaction be?
If someone kills their daugher because she “disgraced” the family by being with an unrelated man unchaperoned, and that person was convicted of murder in Australia, how would YOU feel about the argument the man’s relatives from the old country might make along the lines of “that’s how we do things, it’s not that big a deal, maybe a year or two and probation but we don’t view that on the same level as pre-meditated murder. You barbaric Australians, how dare you lock him up for life for defending the family honor!”
The ones with any sense at all simply ignore them and refuse to do any business with them rather than risk a life sentence or even the death penalty by murdering them.
Yes, I do. Considering how many millions of people in this country use illegal drugs and how many dealers supply them, murder rates would be obscenely high if that wasn’t the case.
The U.S. government reports 554 drug-related homicides in 2004. Sure, it would be a lot nicer if that number was zero, but it hardly fits with your hysterical portrait of evil, dope-pushing thugs gunning down rivals, narcs, and little old ladies on every street corner.
I’m merely pointing out an instance of the same type of behavior in which drug dealers engage that seems to be far more socially acceptable. I didn’t say that it had to be acceptable to you, personally.
Really, my point is (and has been) that it’s unfair to call all drug dealers scum because a certain percentage of them (whatever that percentage may be) are violent assholes. You can make all the annoyingly snide and pointless comments you want about my location, Linty Fresh, but that doesn’t change the fact that you are painfully off-base in lumping every single dealer in with child molesters and contract killers, groups in which, by definition, every single member has committed a violent crime.
Just wanted to chime in here, to say that that’s really been my basic point all along too, and that of all the posters in this bit of sub-thread we’ve generated, neutron star is the one I’ve consistently agreed with (and shown it by not responding to him at all! Well what would be the point, this is the pit!)
I know many drug dealers and ex-drug dealers. I am pretty sure that my father was one for a while too. Dealers of hard drugs like heroin, crack, cocaine, and meth are all scum. They may not have been born that way but it is necessary to be a scumbag to be in that business. The first problem is what they do is highly illegal. That part is obvious but such illegal activities require certain traits once you get deeply involved in them. These include lying, willingness to commit related crimes, willingness to sacrafice other people over oneself, and a distortion of normal reality. Many are addicts themselves and that is an even more volatile mix. That can devolve into high-speed car chases and murders on any given day. One of my high school classmates was busted for making and selling meth. Pretty common right. The big problem was that his kids slept right next to the room with the meth lab? Any idiot knows that meth labs go boom all the time.
The second problem is their product is guaranteed to ruin the lives and maybe even kill a certain percentage of their customers. Some users are regular dabblers but many are going to get caught in an addiction cycle that leads to death, jail, or loss of friends and family. Drug dealers don’t generally care about there customers except as a function of cash and not ratting them out. One dead customer simply means that they need to find a new customer.
My best friend from ages 4 - 7 get caught in a vicious cycle of drug dealing and gambling after high school. He followed a man home that won a casino jackpot, made him get down on his knees, and executed him. The linked article is one of his other presumed victims and he may qualify as a serial killer if the whole truth was known. I never thought of him as a scumbag when we slept in his living room on Friday nights and watched the Dukes of Hazzard.
However, he is a scumbag by definition just like all of them are. Just because someone seems decent and stable enough to have a casual conversation with doesn’t mean that they aren’t an overall unstable, dangerous, scumbag. I don’t know why anyone wastes energy trying to defend these people. They know the stakes and the game. The reason they make so much money is because it is a high stakes game and they still want in. They are automatically human garbage and the only attention we should give them is to decide which pile to put them in.
I agree with everything you said Broomstick. I am having a really hard time trying to understand the opposing viewpoint on this one. Singapore doesn’t want to kill anyone. They don’t want people to courier drugs through or into their country. If someone does, they have to follow through with the promise. This guy was willing to assume the rewards (cash) for a job with a very specific set of risks. The job paid a lot because those risk were there.
People die everyday. This guy is very lucky because he gets to die under circumstances that he conscientiously chose. Most people don’t have that luxury.
I am having problems with some of the questions thrown around. “Wouldn’t you have a problem with an American woman getting executed in the Sudan for consciously engaging in this or that illegal thing?”
Hell, fuck, no. No unless she was wrongfully prosecuted, framed, or illegally coerced. One of the greatest human freedoms is to assume risk for conscience actions up to and including death. Anyone can opt out of that arrangement at any time.
Where is the call for tolerance of other cultures here? Singapore has a very thriving and well established culture. They don’t randomly pick people to execute or torture I fail to see the problem. Does the tolerance of other cultures only extend to somewhat Americanized people that like to smoke pot?
And if a gummint decides that the penalty for ‘doing something wrong’ (which, let’s not forget the premise of our hypothetical example, was ADULTERY, you know, having sex with someone you aren’t married to.) is execution (which, let’s not forget, is the TERMINATION OF LIFE), that’s a-ok with you? Let’s not bitch about it? Let’s not censure the government concerned?
Holy living fuck.
Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
Violating a law isn’t in itself wrong. It might even be a moral duty, depending on the circumstances.
I wouldn’t say it was OK to execute people for sex outside of marriage. However, I am also intelligent/educated enough to know that in a LOT of societies other than ours sex outside of marriage IS a crime that carries severe punishment, in some cases all the way up to death.
Sure, protest to the Sudanese government… it’s worth a try. It will likely have about the same effect as, say, European governments trying to pressure the US government to abolish the death penalty. In other words, not much.
There seems to be an amazing lack of comprehension that when you cross an international border the rules change. You do not carry the laws of your home country with you when you travel. You are subject to the laws of the country you are currently in.