Some of you may remember the story of the U.S. citizen Michael Fay, who back in 1994 in Singapore was convicted of vandalism and sentinced to caning. I sure remember that story, and the extremely strict system of law is what sits in the front of my mind when I think about the country.
Tonight, I was talking chatting online with someone who’s lived in Singapore all her life. I asked her if she lives in constant fear, and she said yes, she’s afraid, but the government is trying to protect her and has her best interests in mind. I continue to pry: How can you live in constant fear that you could get caned for breaking a law you didn’t even know was on the books, even a very minor one? She blew this off pretty easily, saying that she’s lived there for over 20 years and pointed out the very low crime rate. She had problems with it when she was younger, but that’s because they banned chewing gum. Now her biggest problem is the high tax on cigarettes.
As a U.S. citizen, her cavalier attitude completely boggles my mind. If I lived under a system of government where I was fearful that I could accidentally break a law and be severely physically punished for doing so, I would either flee, never leave the house, or hang myself.
I’m posting this because I’m hoping other dopers can help this Western democratic mind realize where she’s coming from and why she’s comfortable with it. How come the fact that she lives in fear every day doesn’t bother her? Am I the only one who finds this wrong and frustrating? Please help me understand.
I would suspect that Singaporians aren’t affraid of accidentally breaking a law because they know these laws (contrarily to the ignorant tourist mentionned in your example).
For instance, american laws about alcohol are much harsher than here (drinking in public, having alcohol in your car, underage drinking, etc…) So, an ignorant french tourist could accidentally break these laws and be sentenced (say, he buys some beers and drink them with some 18 y.o. friends on a public bench). But would a local be affraid of doing the same? Most probably not, since he’s perfectly aware of these laws. And he most certainly wouldn’t flee his country because these laws are harsh. So, similarily, it’s unlikely that a Singaporian would leave his country just because some foreigners are punished for littering the streets.
I would add that you’re actually probbly more likely to ignorantly break a law in your own country in the USA than in most other countries, since american laws vary from state to state. So, what you’re acustomed to believe is legal could suddenly become unlawful as soon as you cross a state border. So, IMO, you’re at a higher risk than Singaporians.
And if you argue that the laws in Singapore are too harsh to be acceptable, you could think about the relative risk you’re taking when for instance smoking marijuana in Amsterdam, Paris and New-York.
I had a Singaporean roommate last year, and from what I gathered from her, the most oppressive part (at least from my perspective) is not the harsh penalties for misdemeanors like chewing gum, but the resistance to political free expression. I wouldn’t like it if the law required me to get my back and butt cut open with a whip for chewing gum in public, but as other posters have remarked, I’d make sure I knew the laws and I’d be able to live with the prohibition. Who cares if I can’t chew gum in public or throw litter or jaywalk? It’s better not to do those things anyway, from a social point of view.
Getting caned or imprisoned for attending a political protest, on the other hand… Yeah. I’d emigrate. (Staying indoors or hanging myself wouldn’t really solve anything. :))
I do not believe for a moment people in Singapore live in fear any more than they do in America. In fact, your chances of being the victim of a violent crime are much higher in America. As long as you know the laws and abide by them you have nothing to fear. Do Americans feel “oppressed” because some laws (e.g.: prostitution, drugs) are much more restrictive than they are elsewhwere? Do they “live in fear”? Well, yes, if they are engaged in those activities.
Just because you like living in America don’t assume everybody else would also prefer the same thing. It would be a big mistake. People tend to prefer what they are used to. If you grew up in a place where the crime rate was low then you will probably not like living in a place where there is a lot of crime. If you grew up in a place with a free press then you would not like a place where the press is controlled.
Also, people value safety and are very willing to trade some freedom for safety. And the USA is a very good example of that these days.
But i would say its just culture differences. Individualism and freedom for the individual are emphasised very strongly in western culture, whereas SE Asian culture tends to emphasise the importance of the community, and society. Neither outlook is correct, just different. For example, look at Hong Kong under PRC rule. Sure there are some pro democracy groups there, but most people just pragmatically accept the situation. If they are still relatively prosperous and their lives aren’t actually affected that much then why would they care? This would never happen in a western population.
So this Singaporean you were talking to probably has a more pragmatic (as opposed to western idealist) view of freedoms. So other things being equal, yes she would like more freedom. But its not the most important thing in the world. From what it sounds like the laws didn’t effect her negatively too much as she doesn’t want to chew gum, attend protest rallies etc. But she perceives that the laws do effect her positively quite a bit, due to the low crime rate. So in her eyes, its a fair trade.
In the past 3 years i’ve spent a lot of time in and out of Singapore. I have a lot of friends there as well. Some natives, some long time ex-pats, some recent expats. Some of these from America, some from Australia.
Is Singapore strict? Sure. In fact it rivals some of the strictest anti-porn anti-vice laws in many of the toughest US states.
Are people afraid? Nope. As long as you purport yourself like a decent human being there is no reason to be.
Michael Fay and some other people went on a vandalism streak that cost thousands of dollars in damage to cars. I will say that he didn’t get anything he didn’t deserve.
There are no Singaporean goon squads kicking down people’s doors for chewing gum or spitting. Sure you can get fined but those are the laws.
The fact is, we find it odd because we don’t live it day to day. The fact is, the crime rate is ver very low, the city is nearly spotless, the jobs ar eplentifful and the pay is good. Aside from the slant towards rabid patrioptism due to a lack of a non-govt sponsored paper it’s damn near perfect.
Except for the porn thing, which is funny because there is a red light district.
People have explained that fear for safety is an acceptable trade-off in the Eastern mind, but I still can’t understand this. I see it this way: Let’s say there was a bomb in your basement and certain actions you take in your house can set it off, but you’re not told which actions. Sure, some things will obviously set it off like opening the natural gas vent and lighting a match, but what about something like flushing the toilet, sitting on the couch, or having sex in your bedroom? Let’s go even further and say you are told which actions. If you open the fridge more than twice in 30 seconds, it’ll go off. How absentmindedly could you do that? You’d want to get out of that house as soon as possible, right? It’s that sort of sword of Damocles hanging over your head that I can’t seem to comprehend.
It seems that there’s a general consensus here of, “If you remain a decent human being, you should be fine.” Well, what if I don’t want to be a decent human being? I understand that a.) in the western democracies, you have a right to be an asshole, and b.) “The nail that sticks out is the one that gets hammered,” i.e., individualism isn’t seen to be conducive to society as a whole in Eastern minds. ButI still really have problems with this. I think the right to do whatever you want to your body is a human right, not a government-given one. No government should dangle harsh punishments over your head simply to get you to be a moral person.
Sailor made the point that you have a much higher chance of being a victim of violent crime in the U.S. than you do in Singapore. Okay, sure, sometimes I hear noises in my apartment at night every so often that make me listen carefully for a moment, but that’s it. I don’t think people generally fear violent crime in the U.S., unless they live in a neighborhood where it’s very prevalent. However, I live in a decent neighborhood on the border of a not-so-nice one, yet I’m still not afraid.
Ah, yes, my fourth point was this: What if you are wrongly accused by the government of a crime you didn’t commit? You receive 30 whacks with a cane because you look like a guy who offed his wife. Even worse, if the government is under pressure to catch a notorious criminal, they might select you as the scapegoat just so they can say they’ve caught the crook.
Agent Foxtrot, do you understand that different people like different things? That some things are more popular than others but not even chocolate is liked by everybody? Because that’s what is comes down to. You like your country so, good for you. Is it so hard to understand other people like their countries too even if they find many things which could be improved?
>> People have explained that fear for safety is an acceptable trade-off in the Eastern mind
Are you aware that that is exactly what is happening in the USA where the people are accepting a suspension of due process in the name of the “fight against terrorism”? If you disagree with this you might want to talk to the US government about it and forget about Singapore for now.
>> It seems that there’s a general consensus here of, “If you remain a decent human being, you should be fine.” Well, what if I don’t want to be a decent human being? I understand that a.) in the western democracies, you have a right to be an asshole
So, having the freedom to be an asshole is an important facet of your life? can you understand that other people do not feel so strongly about that? Can you understand other people have other priorities? I suppose people in Singapore who want to be assholes emmigrate to the USA where they have that freedom. Or not. As immigrants in the USA these days they may be more subject to harassment by the government than if they stayed in Singapore.
>> Sailor made the point that you have a much higher chance of being a victim of violent crime in the U.S. than you do in Singapore. Okay, sure, sometimes I hear noises in my apartment at night every so often that make me listen carefully for a moment, but that’s it. I don’t think people generally fear violent crime in the U.S., unless they live in a neighborhood where it’s very prevalent. However, I live in a decent neighborhood on the border of a not-so-nice one, yet I’m still not afraid.
You really seem very self-centered. Other people do not feel like you do. You do not feel afraid in the USA. good for you. people in Singapore do not feel oppressed. Can you understand that? And summarizing the crime problem in the USA with “hearing noise at night” seems extremely naive. Maybe if and when you are the victim of a violent crime you will change your views a bit.
>> What if you are wrongly accused by the government of a crime you didn’t commit?
You think it does not happen in the USA to innocent people?
Do you realize the USA has the (per capita) highest prison population of any developed country by a big margin? That it is an extremely violent society when compared to other developed countries? I am glad you like it but please don’t make the mistake of believing everubody likes what you like. If you ask most Europeans or Japanese they would not like to live in a society like that and I suspect the people of Singapore feel the same way.
The laws don’t seem that complex, just dont chew gum, litter, abuse drugs, and a few other things.
its not much different than america or any other country though. For instance, here in Indiana burning a flag is a crime. I have never done that but i didn’t even know that until i was 21 and was reading a book about the Indiana criminal code, had I or anyone attended a political rally and burned a flag they would’ve been arrested for it. Also, think of all the people accused of stalking in the developed world who didn’t know they were breaking the law. There are probably other examples of laws that the average american doesn’t know about but are still brought up on. Maybe out of the way tax laws, maybe other laws.
And like sailor said, Singapore has fewer crimes. So maybe there is more fear of an unpredictable government, but there is less fear of an unpredictable criminal too.
i find it very difficult to believe someone can live in constant fear here, as if you can be hauled off for doing nothing. perhaps you have misunderstood her or had unknowingly took it out of context?
i find that unlikely. drugs are illegal here, period. there is no excuse for ‘not knowing’ if you’re toeing the line. and vandalism costing thousands of dollars isn’t ‘minor’ IMHO.
i assume she’d tried to smuggle them in? would that be the reason she lived in constant fear when she was younger? an anecdote - my friend buys some whenever she happens to visit malaysia as a matter of course, she told me the gum was confiscated when she was caught and let off since it was obviously for her personal consumption.
there is the internet, among other places.
you don’t get caned for chewing/importing/selling gum. it is also not illegal to chew gum, just don’t import or sell them here.
you can’t get in trouble unless you persist on carrying on when the police tells you to disperse.
as i’d mentioned above there aren’t (or at least i presently fail to think of) any ways to “absentmindedly” / “accidentally” / “unknowingly” / whatever break the law that would warrant prison or cane to us.
an example would be the amount of grams of say, heroin or whatever that would qualify you for the death sentence. i understand how a foreigner might be confused by this if it isn’t illegal to abuse drugs back home, but there aren’t many ways a local can knowingly obtain any amount of drugs without knowing it is illegal.
drugs and such are detrimental to society as a whole, not just to the individual persons.
i don’t understand. are you suggesting that you can be ‘suddenly’ caught, caned and thrown into jail for being an innocent man? what kind of place have your imagination painted singapore as?
First of all, if you have been brought up in a particular culture, its rules and mores will be ingrained in you. You won’t have to worry about absentmindedly opening the door twice, because all your life, since the day you gained some higher sentience, you’ve been conditioned to treat that fridge door with respect. For a foreigner, the situation is still acceptable: different societies have different rules, and if you want to integrate yourself into a pre-existing culture, you jolly well will live by its rules or else deal with the possibly unpleasant consequences.
You don’t want to be a decent human being? Knock yourself out! People will be assholes to you in return. Unless, of course, by ‘asshole’ you mean a person who (for instance) wants to litter with impunity in Singapore. Sorry, no dice. This is not ‘being an asshole’ in Singapore, see? This is ‘breaking a law’. (Well, okay, being an asshole too.) Again, different cuture, different rules.
No governement should dangle harsh punishments over your head to get you to be a moral person? Well, shoot! Someone tell the FCC that! I mean, they’re actually going to fine Viacom $30,000 if they find them guilty! And to protect morals! The nerve…
The thing about a government is that it is the primary political, economic and legal enforcer in a country. Since civil activities necessarily affect these three aspects of society, the government will always be involved in civics. Morality is one facet of civics. Ergo, the government will be involved in enforcing morality. To wish otherwise is just hopeful naivete.
Singapore as a society is a blend of Eastern and Western influences. There is a strong collectivist culture in place, but individualistic thought is making great inroads. Traditionally, the society was one where economic freedoms were high and civil and political freedoms were more restricted. Now, the climate is changing in that civil liberties have become commonplace, even though political liberties are still at a premium. (Not all civil liberties, it should be noted. For example, there is the rather silly situation where I can walk into a sex shop and buy hard-core bondage gear, but still can’t go home and give my SO a blowjob, such non-reproductive sexual activities being illegal.) Nobody denies that the government is a sort of Father Knows Best entity. What matters is whether this is actually such a bad thing. And that is entirely a question of persepctive.
Frankly, I think the OP has seriously blown out of proportion his friend’s point of view. She cannot be “living in constant fear”, because this society is simply not militantly oppressive. What I can address is this one sentence:
She is likely comfortable with the restrictions because:
She found it acceptable to trade her ‘right’ to litter with the ability to lead a really safe life where she doesn’t even have to worry about
She found the high quality of life worth it.
She found the convenience of living in a small city-state, where everything is an arm’s length away, worth it.
I think a point far more worthy of debate is whether not having the freedom to choose in terms of political rights, when you have admirable civil and economic rights, is such a bad thing at all.
I’m not even Singaporean, and I think that’s quite acceptable.
I wouldn’t give the OP too much flak. It is an extremely difficult thing to put aside ethnocentrism (especially if you are from the United States) and try to look at other society’s with a completely “clean slate.”
I think there are societies that inherently worse than others and societies that are inherently better. But I do not think you can judge that with mores you’ve learned in your own society. I think the only way to judge that is to look at a given society with a clean slate, and then see if that society is more harmful to its people than beneficial.
I think you have to weigh in positives and negatives and see which is greater.
So basically I accept the idea of cultural relativism, but I do not believe that all societies are inherently “good” for themselves.
I remember back when this Michael Fay guy was caned. I have to say I’m glad he got caned. I remember thinking “now I’d like to see this in America”, it’s the kind of punishment that in my opinion would probably fix a young punk pretty quickly.
I think it certainly works better than sending people to our prisons, which in many cases are just gladiator schools that build monsters over a period of years.
As far as violent crime rates in America goes before anyone gets too pessimistic violent crime has been ever steadily decreasing in America ever since 1979. More and more our prison population is becoming more and more composed of people inside for drug violations and public order violations. I tend to not have a problem with outlawing drugs, but a lot of the public order violations like DUI, liquor violations et cetra in my opinion - while unacceptable - can probably be dealt with in a better, more effective, and less expensive form of prohibitive action.
i don’t understand. are you suggesting that you can be ‘suddenly’ caught, caned and thrown into jail for being an innocent man? what kind of place have your imagination painted singapore as?