ah, yes, more examples of civil behaviour that show that the people of this country understand self-sacrifice to ensure the common good… < eyeroll >
And they wonder why they can’t get taxes increased as needed in California…
DSYoungESQ wrote
Amen! I couldn’t agree with you more.
“The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.” Albert Einstein
In response to:
and:
I would simply point out that NO WHERE did I say this was to be any kind of mandatory program!
I said:
Now, I didn’t add that maybe some of the federal $$$ given to other scholarship programs could be used to help fund this program. But that’s why the military is subject to civilian oversight…
Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html
Furt said:
You left out more males, more Mormons & Roman Catholics, disproportionately high numbers of recruits from rural & inner-city backgrounds, and high representation from the Southeast, and low representation from the Northeast.
I disagree here with you. Yes, the WW2 movies may portray units as mini-melting pots; the truth is that in WW2, most units were made up predominantly of kids from one area. The idea was that peer pressure & personal sacrifice for the good of the unit would be stronger if you were fighting alongside lifelong buddies. (and, more cynically, people you’d have to face every day if you ever did make it back to your hometown).
During Vietnam, one of the networks produced a program called “Same Mud Same Blood” that showed how bonding that occurred between white & blacks soldiers in their units was having a profound effect on racial attitudes, and was carrying over into the civilian workplace when veterans left the service.
The military is not perfect today in it’s treatment of minorities. But it is still far ahead of most private sector companies in how far an inner-city minority kid with a HS diploma can go with a little motivation & discipline. In fact, one of the key reasons why minority soldiers stay in the military is that they do not want their kids raised in the environment in which they grew up. The military today offers religious services for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and even Wiccans. Special MREs are available for Muslim & Kosher adherants. I think your implication that the military lacks diversity is way off base. Tolerance & mutual respect in the military for other cultures is higher, on average, than in the civilian world.
What is missing in the enlisted ranks is suburban middle-class white kids who pursue other options, or if they do pursue a military career, make up the bulk of the officer corps.
What is missing from the officer corps is minority kids with the HS achievements to get into an academy or qualify for a ROTC scholarship. Due to affirmative action programs, these kids usually get very nice scholarship offers with much fewer strings attached & pursue these alternatives.
Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html
Sorry, misread the post. But would that be the best way for volunteers to come up? And what is the amount of time required for an enlisted man? I would have to say that a year DOES let the enlisted man get the feel and see if he likes it or not.
“There are many sweeping generalizations that are always true” -Space Ghost
My friend who immigrated from Mexico was required to sign up for the draft as part of citizenship…
Also, if your brother got drafted, you didn’t have to join. they never put all the brothers in the forces anymore.
Boris B
Member posted 10-06-1999 11:27 AM
As shown by the rest of your posting, your answer is, indeed, lame.
Then he wasn’t healthy; now, was he? Think a moment about those of us who serve on ships at sea. Would you like to entrust the lives of approximatley six thousand Sailors to a fire-fighting team whose members are susceptible to loss of consciousness? Unlike a fire-fighting team ashore, those at sea do not have the luxury of backing out of the building to regroup/get reinforements if their members succumb to injury during the fire-fighting. One fights the fire until it is out because failing to do so sinks the ship with all hands on board.
So he had an obvious problem with obeying the laws of the civilian world. Perhaps you may have heard this before, but the military is kind of strict about folks obeying rules and regulations.
Obviously that was his own choice, not the military’s. Don’t blame the military because he backed out.
Then you heard wrong, or partially wrong. Certain drugs, such as narcotics, may be disqualifying for certain career fields within the military, but since the military routinely treats Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and Coast Guardsman in military hospitals with the same drugs used by the civilian hospitals, I’m sure the person who told you this had another reason for disqualification.
The taking of thorazine most likely wasn’t the reason for disqualification, but the condition which necessitated the taking of such medication probably was that reason. Try not to confuse the effect with the cause.
Actually, the military used the definition used by the civilian medical world, not the definition used by the general civilian populace.
There’s a law which prohibits those with domestic violence convictions from using firearms. Just in case you didn’t know, the military, being an armed force, requires its members to use firearms on occasion, and the same military is subject to the laws of the United States of America. There are also certain other conditions (multiple personality disorder, for one) which can get one booted out of the military. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to sign somebody up when you know they’ll be booted out, now does it?
You call it a rumor, that means it’s not a true story. See above about “another reason for disqualification.”
Proven to be a false assertion.
[quote]
lead foots,
[quote]
Proven to be a false assertion.
Proven to be a false assertion.
Also proven to be a false assertion. An addendum: call up the nearest Navy base’s Family Service Center and ask them what their function is. One part of that function is to assist military members and their family members with family problems and they have professionals on staff.
Damn near none of it.
Damn near none of it as the recruiter is also subject to military regulations and can get punished for winging stuff.
Damn near all of it as shown above.
Of course there is. The military routinely enlists folks with, shall we say, “spotty” records. What so many people fail to realize is that there’s an entire spectrum of jobs within the military and some jobs require a certain type of legal, moral, and medical history to enter. Some other jobs don’t have as much attraction as those, but that doesn’t mean the prospective enlistee is automatically barred from the military, just from certain jobs. And, of course, certain legal histories (such as murder convictions) do bar one from the service.
Care to try again with facts?
Handy: all male citizens of the United States now, upon reaching 18, must register for the selective service. Once a person becomes a citizen, then he (since it doesn’t apply to females) must register provided he’s not over a certain age. I don’t recall off-hand the date the law came into effect; however, my younger brother falls into the age group required to register. He’s a bit unhappy about it because when he did want to join, he was unable to as he wasn’t physically fit at that time.
I’m suprised nobody mentioned that the Constitution explicitly states that a military draft cannot be enacted during peacetime. Unless we have another war, there is no chance whatsoever of the government requiring anybody to serve in the military.
MajorMD: I really don’t find any fault with the majority of your suggestions. However, the one about the automatic advancement to E5 is just scary. A Sergeant in the Army does not have the same responsibilities as a Petty Officer Second Class in the Navy although they’re both serving in paygrade E5.
Perhaps a better suggestion would be to require one year (or more) of “National Defense Training” as a prerequisite to entering college. South Korea uses that method and their government seems to like it. Obviously a lot of folks aren’t too thrilled with it but they are technically at war.
At the risk of sounding obtuse, a question relating to the OP: Is this a matter of an insufficiently staffed military or an unrealistic recrutiment quota? Or an under-developed military training program?
I understand the need for personnel during times of crisis (such as deployment in Kosovo), but it would seem there should be some planning regarding how many people are needed at what levels of expertise. Tatertot mentioned the lack of trained troops. Mandatory conscription wouldn’t solve that problem unless the new recruits received training in the areas lacking.
We might need to take a closer look at the way in which the current volunteer force is trained and deployed, as well as the actual number of personnel required to maintain a peacetime force which is nevertheless ready for action when needed.
I know you understand what you heard me say, but what you don’t understand is what I said is not necessarily what I meant.
Monty - in regards to your multi-part answer to Boris B (which I won’t C&P due to length), the military DOES exclude many potential recruits for conditions, which if they occur AFTER enlisting, are treated with no harm to the career progression of the individual.
In regards to your concerns about the automatic progression to E-5:
-
Individuals would not have complete free choice about what service they entered, or what specialty they applied for. Many specialties simply take too long to train for a summer program to accomodate. It also shifts the cost/benefit ratio to the military for the longet training. I was mainly thinking in terms of basic ground troops carrying an M16, or cooks. (Two of the less popular options for enlistees) If you want high-tech training, join the military for a longer enlistment out of high school.
-
Realize that in order to qualify for the automatic promotion, an individual would have accumulated ~ 2 years of active duty (3 months boot camp, 3 months AIT, 6 months deployed, + 1 full continuous year on AD) AND have a college degree.
-
This was something I dreamt up on the spot at 11 at night. I’m not precluding a little tweaking here & there…
Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html
RoboDude claims:
Probably that surprising omission is because the (U.S.) Constitution doesn’t explicitly state that.
“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”
Majormd: Sorry, I misread your post in re your proposal being voluntary.
I did not mention other areas in which the military is “skewed” because I was quoting the article. And yes, the military is diverse. But what I was getting at (and the WWII thing was sort of off the wall) was that in terms of ideology, beliefs, politics the military is rather homogenous.
I guess what I’m getting at is that I think (hope) that people like Longhorn, if drafted, might at some point learn about responsibility and sacrifice. Similarly, a redneck who serves next to a skinny Massachusetts liberal might decide that those he disagrees with politically might still love their country.
The problem with the whole theory is that the military does not exist as an arena for social experimentation; it has a job to do, and taking on people as “projects” would probably get in the way of that job.
“It all started with marbles in school…”
In answer to LongHorn99’s question, an enlisted person is required to serve between 2-4 years, depending on what sort of educational programs (GI Bill, Student Loan Repayment, ect.) and the amount of the enlistment bonus, if any, he/she recieves. For example, my husband recieved $10,000 for enlisting and will get $16,000 for college after he leaves the service (he had to pay $100 for a year towards this, not a bad investment,eh?) in return for four years of active service and four years of reserve time.
The services really do offer a lot to help you get your education. My husband also gets 75% of his college tuition paid, up to $3,500 p/year. He can take courses related to his job field (computer networks) absolutely free, including getting Microsoft certification. All of this is on top of the GI Bill.
Therealbubba mentioned quality of living, which is huge issue amongst servicemembers and their families. In a lot of areas, base housing is subpar and/or hard to get. Those living offpost do get housing allowance but the amount is usually not adequate. For example, when Johnny was in Basic Training he was paid $340 a month in housing allowance for me & our son. In Memphis, where I was living, might get you a two bedroom apartment, if you don’t mind living in a boarded up shack between a crack house and the freeway. They do adjust this by area, but I’ve never heard anyone say that it was enough to actually cover rent and utilites which are free if you live onpost.
The single soldiers usually have to live in barracks, sharing a room. Sometimes that room has its own bathroom, often not. Their rooms are even inspected, on a regular basis, for cleanliness & contraband. No wonder so many of them get married, before they are ready, just to get out of the barracks.
Improving the quality of life, in my opinion, would definately improve recruitment/retention.
“The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.” Albert Einstein
Oops - I made a mistake, my husband paid $100 a per month for a year towards the GI Bill, not $100 for a year.
Quixotic wrote:
I believe that the services are in the process of “rightsizing”. It’s actually kind of a personnel nightmare. They need so many privates in infantry, so many majors in engineering, ect. To a certain extent, the military can rely on Reservists when there’s a crisis, but the reserves are low on people, too.
“The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.” Albert Einstein
Majormd
Member posted 10-09-1999 02:08 PM
That’s exactly what I said, Major. What I was addressing was Boris’ assertion that the military was excluding folks based on the treatment not the condition.
BTW: the Navy does have a semi-automatic advancement program to E5 for certain ratings, most of which are in the nuclear propulsion field: automatic advancement to PO3 upon completion of one portion of the training and then automatic advancement to PO2 upon reenlistment for a full six-years if serving onboard a sea-going vessel.
To address Monty’s concern with certain pre-existing conditions requiring perscriptions.
I have a MOS that is in high demand now, that I carried when I was in the army some 20 years ago. I worked with a reservist who was trying to get me to sign up in his unit. I told him about my thyroidectomy, which requires me to take levoxyl every day for the rest of my life, and I take a beta blocker to treat primary hypertension. I am in excellent health, my hypertension is under control, and out of curiosity, I asked him to ask his commander if they would take me. They wouldn’t touch me with a ten foot pole, even though I still hold an MOS that’s in high demand. The reasoning is simple, I will die within weeks without my levoxyl, and when at war, sometimes a pharmacy is not real handy.
A guy I went through boot camp with, way back in '78, had a real bad case of acne. He could not wear a protective gas mask on a battlefield with an adequate face seal with his condition. He was given a medical discharge the last week of basic training.
The point I make is if access is denied to a given perscription drug due to battlefield conditions, that will comprimise the unit’s mission. The reserve unit denied me not because of my condition, because I was healthy. They didn’t want me because I needed perscription medication to maintain my level of health. I can’t think of any perscribed drug that wouldn’t fit that scenerio.
Therealbubba
Now this really bothers me.
I’m not normally a combative type – I’m a lover, not a fighter 
– but I can’t help but point out that the freedom of each and every one of us was purchased with someone else’s blood.
It has been thus through all our history.
I would hope that we would never be asked to fight to defend our country, our neighbors, our loved ones, but if and when that day comes, dear heart, I sure do hope your attitude is not the prevailing one, for if it is we are screwed, we are lost, we are defeated before it even begins.
You have full expectation of all the benefits of being a United States citizen, but are not willing to defend the nation or your fellow man? How incredibly selfish. I sure hope I don’t live next door to you, you’d stand around and watch my house burn down, I guess.
Not to drag in outside topics, but this is exactly the kind of attitude Kitty Genovese’s neighbors had – they sat in their houses while she was murdered and simply listened to her death throes. These selfsame kind of people lived in Germany and watched their neighbors hauled off to death camps. Ain’t nothing to be proud of, cousin.
your humble TubaDiva
PS I totally agree with Phil’s Dad – every American citizen should have to serve two years in some fashion - if not the military in some form of community service.
Monty
Interesting. I make a self-deprecating disclaimer, and you repeat it back to me. How clever.
Who said the “hot dog” was susceptible to loss of consciousness? He was a high-intensity skier in his teenage years, and he knocked himself senseless. The “leadfoot” had a problem obeying social laws as an immature 16-year-old. The Marines are supposed to instill discipline, and they do, in plenty of men who were immature as boys. Do you know any immature boys?
What does family therapy have to do with domestic violence and multiple personality disorder?
Couldn’t be bothered to pick up a dictionary, could you?
I wasn’t criticizing military policy toward its members, I was (mildly) criticizing its attitudes toward potential recruits.
Absolutely not. I have dealt with people like you quite enough. You have clearly taken a dislike to me based on criticisms of the military I have heard, and chose to bring into the discussion. You have brought in no more facts than I have, instead choosing to defend your beloved military by deliberately misrepresenting what I have said. Fortunately, the military is not nearly so thin-skinned as you are. Sorry to have hurt your feelings.