Manned mission to Mars?

Does our current level of technological advancement allow for a manned Mars mission? Not that I can think of any good reason to spend money on such a thing, if we wanted to, could we?

If so, how long would it take for a shuttle crew to get there?

Would landing/taking off be a problem without a runway, etc?

What about refueling?

What would be the delay time between Mars crew and NASA communication?

How long could the trip last (in terms of, say, oxygen for the crew or power for the shuttle)?

Finally, are there any signals (radio signals, television signals, satellite signals, etc) that are produced by anything on Earth or in orbit of Earth that could be picked up on Mars? Could the crew watch HBO on Mars?

:slight_smile:

http://www.nw.net/mars/

Don’t know the answers to all your questions but I’ll give these two a try:

Sending a spacecraft to another planet essentially involves placing it in an eccentric orbit around the Sun and timing the orbit to rendezvous with the destination planet. The time it would take to get to Mars depends on where Earth and Mars are in their orbits. Could be anywhere from a few months to a couple of years.

Distances between Earth and Mars vary widely. At the moment they are about 2 A.U. apart so one-way signal travel time is about 17 minutes. This past August, during the closest approach in thousands of years, they were about .37 A.U. apart, or a little over 3 light minutes. The greatest distance would be if Mars were at aphelion behind the Sun - a total of about 1.67 A.U. or 23 minutes.

Depending on your point of view, we may have had the technology for a manned Mars mission since the late 60s/early 70s.

We’d certainly have to rebuild a bit of space-launch infrastructure to do it, though. Heavy lift boosters, and all that.

As I remember, Russia stated that they ahve had the capabilities to put men on mars (not retrieve them) since the sixties, but never had the funding. They still ahve the ability.
I also remember that the problematic part of the mission would be the return, because it would require too much fuel. There was some proposal to use fuel that would be available to harvest on mars itself, but I doubt it would pan out.

In essence there is a possibility, it’s astronomically expensive, chances are it’s still gonna be done in the next 25 years, because of human stubborness. I still don’t understand the scientific discoveries gained from going to mars. It’s all about jocks in the capitol hill pumping fists over who can send a rocket the farthest.

The technology to get a man to Mars has been around since Saturn V days - it would just have cost more money. Transit times vary considerably, depending on what type of rocket you use to get to Mars, and its position - using chemical boosters, you are going to need several months to a year to reach Mars, and the same to get back.

But you can drastically cut travel times if you use a nuclear rocket - one proposal involved a Project Orion type craft launched atop a Saturn V, that could have carried 8 men and supplies for a 4 month mission. This proposal had the advatage of needing only single Saturn V to get entire craft into orbit, rather than using many expensive launches to get pieces of a ship into orbit.

From Bob Park’s April 9 edition of the What’s New newsletter:

“Another entrepreneur with too much disposable income, Greg Olsen, has signed up to be an ISS tourist. Olsen seems to confuse high-tech bungee jumping in low-Earth orbit with exploration. The real explorers, Spirit and Opportunity, 50 million miles away on Mars,are performing so well NASA has extended their tour of active duty 3 months. There have been no complaints from families.”

There are lots of discoveries to be gained from going to Mars. It’s just that it’s wildly inefficient to send humans up there.

I am currently reading Dr. Robert Zubrin’s The Case For Mars and I believe it will not only answer your questions but set your mind spinning at the possibilities. Here are some basic answers to your questions:

> If so, how long would it take for a shuttle crew to get there?

The Space Shuttle is not designed for this, but a vehicle designed for the trip could make the run in something like six months using Apollo-era technology.

> Would landing/taking off be a problem without a runway, etc?

The “Mars Direct” plan proposed in The Case For Mars posits using small thrusters, an aeroshell (imagine a shallow dish covered in insulation), and parachutes to make a controlled landing accurate to within 10km.

> What about refueling?

By bringing six tonnes of liquid hydrogen along for the trip, Martian atmospheric CO2 could be converted into methane (CH4, fuel) oxygen (O2, oxidizer and breathable air) and water (H2O for drinking) using 19th-century chemistry. Dr. Zubrin proposes sending a return vehicle two years before the manned mission, so that a fully-fuelled return vehicle (stocked with food for a return journey) is wating for the crew, should anything go wrong. Send the manned mission in one vehicle along with another crew return vehicle, and they’ve got two to choose from; whichever one they don’t use becomes the spare for the next manned mission.

> What would be the delay time between Mars crew and NASA communication?

IIRC, on the order of a few minutes, somewhere between three and thirty depending on orbital distance. E-mail or “instant” message would be preferred over voice comms, I think.

How long could the trip last (in terms of, say, oxygen for the crew or power for the shuttle)?

The first trip could (and would almost need to) stay on the surface for 24 months. The limiting factor is food. Solar power is abundant on Mars; water and breathable air can be synthesized from hydrogen and recycled nearly indefinitely. Plants would flourish in Mars’ CO2 atmosphere and low gravity, provided they were watered and kept in nutrient-rich soils; an inflatable greenhouse might be necessary. Backup power could be provided by a small nuclear reactor.

> Finally, are there any signals (radio signals, television signals, satellite signals, etc) that are produced by anything on Earth or in orbit of Earth that could be picked up on Mars?

Most signals generated for earthbound customers are aimed at the Earth; transmission in other directions is incidental and a waste of power. The inverse-square law and capitalism dictate that if there aren’t any paying customers on Mars, odds are good that very little signal is being wasted on deep space. Plus, bringing a high-gain antenna to Mars tuned for anything other than communication would be a waste of VERY expensive mass.

> Could the crew watch HBO on Mars?

HBO is transmitted by satellite and by cable; for the former, see above. If you want to stretch a really long cable between Earth and Mars, however… :smiley:
Since the first crew is likely to be all-male, I think they’d be more interested in Cinemax or ESPN.

I believe there would be also a serious issue with cosmic radiations. The crew would be killed by radiations emitted during solar eruptions, except if they can be warned in advance and shelter in an heavily-protected part of the vehicle. I understand that even in this case, they would suffer rather high doses of radiations during the travels to and from Mars.

The threat of radiation depends on the design of vehicle, and how much extra mass you can devote to radiation shielding. For example, if they used the Project Orion type vehicle I linked to above, they could avoid radiation from solar eruptions simply by pointing the pusher-plate at the sun. Any sort of nuclear-powered craft would offer a significant advantage over a chemical-power craft in terms of radiation dosage - the transit time would be much shorter, and you can afford much more mass for radiation shielding, even when you factor in the weight of shielding a reactor.

:smiley:

Even if we can, what would a manned mission to Mars acomplish? Like the Moon landings… not all that much… and there isn’t even someone to race there. It might be done as a form of propaganda to the public to prove that it is possible and that we can come back sometime in the future and build something there.

Though as with the Moon, (just a short four day trip away) us humans have a short attention span and without even some fear like the Russians will eventually rule the world I’m sure that anything past a human landing, such as a base, is unlikely. After all, everyone thought we’d be buying tickets by now for a honeymoon on the moon (ha, I didn’t even try to do that).

With mars, we’ve been talking about it for decades and nothing has happened. is … and there isn’t whatever insane amount it would cost just sitting around anytime soon… or even for decades, really.

Yeah, we’ll drive some rovers around and maybe even walk a guy or 10 on it someday… but I wouldn’t have high hopes for having a vacation home.

Its sad, really. The only national program that can save us in the long run is getting a miniscule amount of funding (something is going to happen to this rock eventually… though if we looked into history at other species that had their time on the top we would realize that it is much more likely that we will be the ones going before anything major on a geological scale happens) and there really is no push by anyone besides a few space junkies to do anything.

I wonder if the Mars lander crew’s email address would be at the .gov domain or if Mars would get its own TLD. :smiley:

In any case, if there’s no other life in the solar system then everything in it is ours to do with as we please. It would be a shame, I think, to never terraform Mars, Venus, and possibly even Callisto unless there was already some kind of life discovered there (which seems unlikely). Humanity’s sheer numbers keep growing and I think we’ll eventually go live on other planets.

We’ve gone around and around on this question in GD, and it looks like the discussion is beginning to evolve in that direction. But here’s one practical viewpoint out of many dozen possibilities.

It is inevitable that humanity will eventually spread spaceward. We are hardwired to seek frontiers and expand our borders, and by this point we’ve pretty much run out of good places on Earth for habitation; the sparsely populated areas, for the most part, are in deserts or mountains or other undesirable terrain. So it’s no wonder we’re starting to look outwards.

That’s the psychological aspect. The practical aspect: There is a huge amount of money to be made in space, in the long run. For example, one typical metal-based asteroid, containing varying amounts of nickel, iron, platinum, and so on, would have a market value at current prices of approximately thirty trillion dollars. Anyone possessing the wherewithal to create a hundred-billion-dollar program for asteroid retrieval would see a three-thousand-to-one return on even that enormous investment, twenty years down the line— and that’s for just one of them; succeeding retrievals permit amortization of the initial investment, and a huge increase in profitability overall. Plus, that’s a typical asteroid; some are smaller, and some are far larger. (Naturally, there are economic consequences when the supply of a rare commodity suddenly increases, so a large-scale space-mining operation wouldn’t continue to be so outrageously profitable when the rocks are dropping in on a regular basis. But as with anything, the longer it goes, the more we know, and the easier and cheaper it gets.)

Now, to bring it back to Mars: If you’re going to get into space-based mining and manufacturing in a big way, it makes a lot more sense to base it off the red planet than here on Earth. In general, you want to put your refining and manufacturing operation on a planetary body, because zero-G creates a large set of problems; and when considering planets, Mars offers several advantages over Earth. First, it’s closer to the asteroid belt (though there are a large number of bodies between Earth and Mars, called NEOs, that can be retrieved first, before proximity to the belt becomes an issue). Second, Mars has virtually no atmosphere, and significantly lower gravity, which means it’s a lot easier and cheaper to land and take off. Third, as far as we know, there’s no life, so there’s no environmental impact to putting a major manufacturing station in the middle of Tharsis, instead of Kentucky or Ukraine or wherever. Fourth, the similar advantages offered by the Moon as a base of operation are countered by the fact that Mars has ample water reserves, compared to the limited stores of cratered ice on the Moon, thus making a self-sustaining human presence far easier to engineer.

All of that is at least a hundred years in the future, or probably more. That by itself is a downside, because humans are notoriously poor at planning for things they won’t see in their own lifetimes. It’ll need to progress by small stages, probably beginning with the first retrieval of at least one NEO by some deep-pocketed visionary.

But it does, eventually, need to happen. At some point, we’ll need to roll up our sleeves and get to work. In a previous thread on the topic, I offered a story for comparison, about the traffic mess my hometown, Seattle, is currently in. We’ve known there was going to be trouble for thirty years, but we couldn’t agree on a solution, and so we did nothing. For a while, it was easy to keep dickering and debating, because the pain hadn’t really started, and the benefit of any program was twenty years in the future. Thirty years later, if we’d actually started something, it would have been done ten years ago. We didn’t, and the solution is still twenty years away, but now it’s even more expensive and politically contentious, because the players have become entrenched. We all know something has to be done, and we all know it won’t show results for twenty years, and so we continue sitting on our hands while the problem gets worse and worse. Just human nature.

We have the capability to make some initial moves in the direction of long-term growth into space, tentative and limited as they might be, and we’re doing some of them now. But we need to pick up the pace, because we need to make mistakes from which we can learn. We need to have a basis of understanding upon which plans can be built. Eventually, we’ll need to put people on Mars just so we can learn how to do it, in order to make the eventual uses practical instead of theoretical.

Right now, there is no concrete return-on-investment reason to be doing any of the things we’re doing in space (with the sole exception of communications satellites). In the long run, though, even the sky will be no limit. Whenever we start working on the problem in earnest, it’ll be a hundred years before we see something resembling a mature industry in space, a network of privately-held profit-based operations that drive humanity’s interest into the new frontier. If we get going now, it’ll be a hundred years from today. If we wait twenty years, it’ll still be a hundred years from then. There may be future technologies (nuclear thermal rockets, for example, or advanced polymers that make spacecraft easier to build) that cut off a few years from this time frame, but mostly it’s about getting the actual real-world experience, making mistakes and solving problems day after day after month after year. And that, simply stated, takes time.

So as far as I’m concerned, we might as well get started.