Manned Space Exploration is The Most Important Long-term Human Endeavor

The West Wing had a very quote more or less on this issue:

Sam “There are a lot of hungry people in the world, Mal, and none of them are hungry 'cause we went to the moon. None of them are colder, and certainly none of them are dumber 'cause we went to the moon.”
Mallory “And we went to the moon. Do we really have to go to Mars?”
Sam “Yes.”
Mallory “Why?”
Sam “'Cause it’s next. 'Cause we came out of the cave. And we looked over the hill, and we saw fire. And we crossed the ocean, and we pioneered the West, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration, and this is what’s next.”

That, and the OP, pretty much sum me up, although I would like to add that even if human space flight is just for “photo and propanganda” purposes, so what? It is a dream in a way. It’s humanity trying to do something great and expand, and in itself its worthwhile. There are few things more important.

I have to agree partially with Vorlon: the human body is built specifically (and spectacularly) for this particular environment. I will support any effort to colonize space (although my support is worth about as much as my opinion… not too terribly much) but I would be far happier if the colonists were built specifically for inhabiting their new environment, whether they take the form of robots or genetically altered beings or whatever other options may be thrown at us. They would be our ‘children’ in a far more personal way than the children we have today: their bodies and minds more the result of our concentrated, dedicated effort than any random amalgam of genes. I see no need to propagate a flawed biological chassis throughout eternity when there are other options.

Obviously, I don’t believe inhabiting another heavenly body will be possible until there is a pretty significant improvement in virtually all scientific fields. But I’m all for continuing and improving our current efforts both in space and on the ground, since they will likely lead to the improvements we require.

-C

The reason humans need to go into space now is because we need to learn how to go into space. Yes, we can collect rocks and images and radiometric readings with probes, but they can’t colonize another planet, they can’t exploit economic opportunities, and spreading robots across the solar system isn’t the same thing as spreading humans across it.

Lately, I’ve been wondering why we really should want this; what difference does it make if the human race never leaves the solar system? (which, I believe will be the almost inevitable result of the difficulties posed in traversing vast interstellar distances).

Yup, if man were meant to traverse vast interstellar distances he’d have rockets in his ass.

Even if we don’t leave the solar system we still buy ourselves a bit of safety if we get to the Moon and Mars (and maybe build a few large orbiting stations). And frankly, I don’t think a “sleeper” ship is all that hard to do. If we can find a way to put ourselves into hibernation and build a ship that can do 0.1c or so we’ve got the interstellar problem solved. Oh, you won’t ever come back. Sleeper ships are a one way trip. But if we can build the next generation of space telescopes we can perhaps identify earth-like worlds so we know where to go.

0.1c is nearly 67 million miles per hour; I hope an airbag comes as standard.

I also agree with the OP, we need to continue with exploration of space. Why should we stop the space program because some one has died. More people have died flying in planes, driving cars, crossing the street, even lying in bed, but nobody is calling for thoses activities to be halted because of the danger.

Now it is sad that it happened, but it we must move on…to Mars.

I’m going to come out on the side of “respectfully disagree.” I feel somewhat hesitant to do so in light of today’s events, for I surely don’t mean to slight or disrepect the crew that was lost this morning. But I would have said the same thing yesterday, had anyone asked.

Eliminating the space program completely would indeed be short-sighted. But to continue manned space exploration, at the current level of funding, is far-sighted (this metaphor is starting to fall apart – long-sighted? far-sighted?). At any rate, I mean the current program is sucking up too many resources with too little information to have the desired long term results, and those results haven’t been especially well-articulated. The goals for the manned space program are too nebulous, I’m a little wary of anything with a price tag of this size that tends to justify itself by flying the flag of “the glory of mankind” and trotting out lots of poetry about “reaching for the stars.”

(Ok, I feel crappy bringing that up about the poetry, because it’s been used today in the context of memorials to the crew who was lost today, very appropriately, IMHO. It’s not appropriate in a discussion of the finances of NASA, on the other hand. And wasn’t appropriate to fuel public interest in taking John Glenn back to space. For the love of Mike, he’s already BEEN to space! Why did he need to go back?)

Human imagination is limitless, this is not true of our resources. They could be put to better use in a variety of fields, to aid current generations, and will also generate results that aid future generations as well. Chances are that research into solving current earth-bound problems will benefit the space program as well in years to come.

I know I’m a wet blanket because the abstract idea of humans venturing out into space is very exciting and captures the imagination. I’m not arguing that part at all. It’s just that manned space exploration right now seems like putting the cart before the horse.

Another “me too” post. Getting people off this planet is the most important thing we can do. If they were going to launch another shuttle tomorrow, I’d be first in line to volunteer to go. Rather than a moon or Mars colony though, I think we should start with a greatly expanded space station. Having a few people up there is cool and all, but what we need is a true space habitat. From there, starting a colony would be easier.

I partially agree with you. The emphasis does need to be more on hard core colonization. Frankly, I’d rather see a small, permanent (and growing) moon colony than a Mars mission. We had a moon program and cut it off when it’s political purpose had ended. What we need more than anything is permanent human colonization of the solar system not necessarily something that makes good theatre.

So the new astronauts should be recruited from San Francisco? :slight_smile:

(Okay, you guys can quit with the throwing of the tomatos now)

There’s a lot of people in this thread saying “We need to do this and we need to do that.”

Well, you know what? Cite, please?

Manned space missions are not needed at this time, for the most part. I don’t see any real need for manned space missions right now, but I can see lots of areas where that money would be far more useful presently. All this talk of Mars colonies, and we need to get off the Earth before it dies, etc. is just silliness. We’ve had the capability to travel to the moon for 30 odd years now, and there aren’t any colonies there. What makes anyone think a manned trip to Mars would be any different? It wouldn’t, it would just be a nice photo op, like the Apollo missions.

Don’t get me wrong, if I had the money I would totally do what that one rich guy did with the Russian space program did tomorrow. But my judgement isn’t so clouded by childhood fantasies and science fiction books that I think there is a real need to spend the amount of money on the manned missions as opposed to other priorities right now.

You don’t even need hibernation. You could build a big (big) ship in orbit (out of asteroids etc) and set it off with nuclear reactor. Instead of freezing everyone you just have them live out there lives on in the ship and have kids. If you need more room you just build it on. You don’t need lightspeed, you just need a lot of time. The ship would drop nuclear powered transmitters as it goes so they could keep in touch with Earth. One day they may find a Earthlike planet and land the ship. Of course, this would take a long long time but I’m sure you’ll find people willing to go. Plus there is a small (around 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000? A lot more right?) chance of meeting aliens and sharing tech. We won’t be able to do it anytime soon mind you, but its still an idea.
However I agree Mars may not be the best idea at this time. I would rather see the Prometheus used to start a colony on the Moon. Once we’ve done that and figured things out, we can build another nuclear rocket and colonize Mars. It seemed kind of pointless to go to Mars just for the helluvit. I’d rather see the money spent on colonization, its a better investment and it will probably be more useful in the long run.

[hijack]
Would it be possible to rig up the Prometheus to become the power source of a Moon colony?
[/hijack]

ARRGH! When will there be a message board that automatically saves your replies as you write them? (Don’t sit there and blame the user by telling me I should be drafting them in Word - which, of course, is what I am now doing.)

OK, let’s see if I can recreate what I pulled together over the last hour or so. I’ve found at least some sites to support my thesis, but I must also admit that a fair amount of what I’m reporting comes courtesy of my father, a mathematician and computer scientist who worked in the space program in the 60s and has served with NASA scientists on various NSF panels since then.

Let’s start with gist of my reply: Billdo, I respect your opinions on many issues but in this case you’re trying to justify bad science with worse economics.

We’ll start with a few facts. According to an editorial in Scientific American, each shuttle launch costs approximately $500 million, and as we all know after today’s events there have been about 110. And that may be lowballing - other sources I found claimed as high as $650 million. But let’s use the lower number, in which case the cumulative launch cost is somewhere around $55 billion.

Even the most expensive of American rockets, with equivalent payload capacities, have a launch cost less than half that of the shuttle (scroll down). And other rockets, such as the Russian and European competition, have much lower cost profiles.

That we could call the price of trying to sustain human life while propelling objects from earth into (at minimum) orbit. That’s huge, but would be justified if the program regularly produced compelling science.

It hasn’t. There is, in the opinion of my father and quite a number of (non-NASA) observers, astonishingly little that manned space exploration has produced that could not have been accomplished at a fraction of the price on unmanned missions. Worst-case scenario: we might have lost the Hubble. Guess what: at the cost of five flights - five! - we could’ve built and launched ourselves a new one.

And the space station, with space colonization? Let’s start with the former. Its budget has, so far, ballooned from 18 to 30 billion, and will probably go much higher, despite criticisms that it is little more than a make-work project designed to keep the uneconomic shuttle in business.

More fundamentally, it’s based on the second idea: colonization, which in turn relies on a neomalthusianism dear to economically illiterate environmentalists, but pretty thoroughly disproved over the last decades by economists.

We are simply not “running out” of any major commodity, as demonstrated in the famous Erlich-Simon Bet. Even fresh water, which is our greatest challenge in some parts of the world, can be rationed or desalinated quite effectively; and in virtually every other commodity, real prices have dropped dramatically. That’s microeconomics at work: although temporary shortages do happen, they’re pretty well guaranteed to remain just temporary, as hitherto-uneconomic supplies suddenly become sustainable (e.g. Alberta tar sands). Worst thing governments can do is try to interfere in the process, which is a major part of the reason the only sub-Saharan African country still in a serious famine (as of recent New York Times reporting) is Zimbabwe.

Population? Estimates of population growth keep diminishing, even at the UN, which most enthusiastically supported neomalthusianism in the mid-1970s. And there’s little hard evidence that even the worst case scenarios would see a significant exhaustion of commodities, for the reasons stated above.

So, let’s see: we have a program that doesn’t achieve much, other than feed Buck Rogers fantasies about colonies in space. It costs a sonuvabitch and squeezes out other, much more eminently justifiable, astronomy programs. Its major appeal was public relations…and I don’t think we need debate that right now. (I keep thinking of Lady Bracknell: To lose one shuttle may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness.)

Kill it. Let a thousand Galileos and Voyagers bloom.

I’ll say it again, mainly because it is personal opinion and thusly citeless.

It makes very little practical sense to have people going into space, but when I think about not having anymore manned space flights, life just seems a bit more empty. I’m sure if you dug around you could find some research on the benefits of exploration with regard to human psychlogy. We (i.e. humanity) just seem to need to know that we haven’t hit our limit yet. If we retire from manned space travel, we are admitting that we have hit a wall in how far we can go.

To put it another way, if the seven astronauts had been practical, they would be seven dentists.

Manned space flight ain’t practical, but neither are we.

posted under girlfriends username again:smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:

I think manned space flight as it is is So-so. We are just squandering money on experiments on ants and spiders and stuff. Sure, that may be important, but why not suspend shuttle launching for 2 years, use all that money that would’ve been used to launch the shuttles to develop and build a new craft that can do everything the shuttle can do for 1/3 of the cost, and then go colonize mars.

I think the major problem with our current space program is that it has no purpose… I’m serious. We waste $500 million to watch ants in orbit? WTF is that?

If we’re going to be going into space, we might as well do something useful while we’re at it. A trip to the moon, would be more useful than an orbit around Earth. Jeesus… With current technology, a moon landing could probably be done for the same cost as a shuttle launch (I’m just estimating, but it could probably be done). What would we accomplish? A hell of a lot more than orbiting the Earth…
I say, kill the shuttle, and develop the next generation. we are down to 3/4 or 3/5 of our original fleet… I think it’s time to reconsider our options. Better yet, spend that money on an orbital elevator. That’s more cost effective than the shuttle. We would have unrestricted access to outer space, and it could be done in 5-10 years… Screw rockets, our future transportation to space WILL BE the orbital elevator.

Sigh… Let’s do something productive for a change.

Those of you who argue that that money could be put to better use fail to understand two things.

  1. Put money into the hands of the beaurocrats, and suddenly it disappears. We will never see the fruits of our labors by investing in domestic issues. Sure, cancer and AIDS and stuff could be fixed by government funding. But in the end, the funding would be severely restricted and in the end the private sector would beat them to it, just like the Human Genome Project.

  2. Money used here on Earth may fix this generations problems, but it will not fix the next generations problems. Manned space flight has sooooooooo many potential applications as well as spinoffs, that to not have men in space is rididculous and stupid. What do we do if our species faces extinction and we have no manned space flight experience? Guess we die, because tomorrow we decide to cancel manned space flight…
    Our destiny is to go to the stars. Interstellar travel may not be feasible today, but in 300 years or so, it may very well be. I mean look at how far we’ve come in the 20th century. From horse and buggy, to Space Shuttle. In the last 10 years, we’ve gone from “What’s a PC,” to “I can’t live without the Internet.” In the next 10 years, we may be driving hydrogen powered cars. Space travel may be affordable. Who knows?

One thing is for certain, our future lies in space. Even if we don’t make it past our solar system, we will learn infinitely more in space than we could ever hope to accomplish here.

Don’t kid yourself though by thinking that it will be a cake walk. Like anyother exploration, it will have it’s cost, in material, men, and money. In the end though, the ends justify the means.

The meek will inherit the earth; the rest of us are going to the stars.

I believe that our future lies in space. However I do agree somewhat with the detractors, however my personal view on that is not that we should stop manned missions, but more that we should privatize NASA and treat them as a government contractor, rather than a part of the government. If NASA had a profit motive, then I think a lot more would be discovered and accomplished in the long-term.

As for the space elevator idea, I’m pretty much against this. I don’t believe in an “unsnappable cable” and I’m not willing to face the consequences when a taught 40,000 mile long steel cable comes snaking around the earth evaporating seas upon impact and coiling around the equator, wiping out swaths of cities and forests.

I personally would love to see quadrillions of human beings scattered around the galaxy.

Erek