margin is a freaking lunatic.

The BBQ Pit
241

Or, let me try another tack that might have an impact.

Let’s take a phenomena that doesn’t actually happen, just as an example to point out your methodological error. Those who report alien abductions to the police are much, much fewer than those who report alien abductions in surveys. Likewise, those who report close encounters to the police are much, much fewer than those who report close encounters in surveys. Therefore, alien visitation and abduction are dramatically under reported events.

You see the problem with this methodology now, yes?

What we can correctly state is that the number of people who make official accusations is much lower than the number of people who make unofficial accusations. But it’s much less of a certainty what the actual rate of the crime is, especially when we factor in conflicting statistics on the incidence of false reporting.

242

I haven’t seen any stats on false rape reporting that have not suffered from methodology flaws so profound as to make the alien abduction reporters look credible–and I say this as a false rape report victim. There are NO even remotely credible studies as to how many men are victims of false rape accusations. The FBI cites a false accusation rate at rapes which go to trial of 3-8% which is not so low or so high as to be unbelievable.

The fact is, a 20% certainty spread in reporting isn’t necessarily a problem so much as it is a reflection of, as you said, a significant problem with gathering factual data from unproven assertions. I’m comfortable with the stats saying, generally, that rape is vastly underreported–even if we don’t have exact numbers.

Look at it this way–what’s the benefit to anyone from survey respondents lying about reporting that they were raped but didn’t call the police? If they were publicizing it, you could point to something potentially existing – and even that wouldn’t probably outweigh our general cultural bias against those who accuse but do not go to trial. (I’m assuming that you’re questioning the reliability of the NCVS respondents, and not asserting that the DoJ is fronting for some sort of mythical rape-stat-inflation cabal?)

243

“Behaving the right way” can include swearing, (safe) promiscuity, and a host of other things you don’t like. It can never include rape.

Your ideas on moral relativism are laughable, especially as you’re arguing with me as though I’m a moral relativist–I’m not. I just think your morals are laughably strict and useless for the most part. Not to mention totally irrelevant.

244

(My bolding.)

Speaking of making up shit…

245

No one has implied that there was nothing we could have done.

I mentioned that children of single-parent families are disproportionately found among violent criminals (as well as most other social pathologies). As mentioned, margin claims no one was talking about the rapists and how this could have been prevented, but she is lying. Please don’t confuse what people like her say with the truth.

Regards,
Shodan

246

The question was asked: “Why is no one talking about what his parents could have done?”

You answered: “Because he’s 19 and responsible for his own actions.”

I replied: “Conversely, sir, he did not spring into existence fully formed at 19”

And you replied with the top quote.

I recognize that **margin **is insane. That doesn’t excuse what appears, on the face of it, to be unclear phrasing on your part in the specific post I quoted.

247

The problem though is the same - that the official reports cannot be relied on to give definitive figures. In short, we are dealing with unknowns on both sides of the equation.

Neither could I. What I did find were lots of cites for individual police departments under-reporting crimes in order to puff their efficiency, not over-all statistics. That of course is a similar category to the UK cite.

The reason may be that the crime of rape is intensely politicized (hey, look at this thread) and thus the problem of underreporting of rape as a category is of significant public interest.

The problem is that, if non-rape crimes are also underreported, the impact of the “rape is underreported” point is lessened - in this argument, though not of course generally. There is no question in my mind that both sexual and non-sexual crimes of violence go underreported - part as deliberate policy (as in the UK example) and part because victims, for various reasons, do not come forward - but the relative under-reporting of different categories of crime is, at least to my abilities, very difficult to measure. Too many unknowns on both sides of the equation.

However, one thing we cannot do is say that the under-reporting of sexual assault ought to be taken into account (and so expand the sexual assault figures) without also taking into account the fact that non-sexual assault may also be under-reported. That is to compare apples to oranges. Particularly where we know there are significant issues with crime statistics generally. It would probably be closer to the truth to simply assume that the reporting errors even out across categories of crime - though this is also unsatisfactory, it may be a “second best”.

248

The FBI study has the methodological flaw whereby they disregarded all cases where the accuser drops charges or doesn’t aid the police investigation. That being the case, as pointed out, the precise number of false rape claims isn’t clear. Also unclear is the number of unreported-accusations that are true, as they aren’t investigated or proven in a court of law. And that doesn’t even get into the massive methodological failure where certain studies conflate rape and sexual assault and then present one number as if it speaks to the prevalence and unreported rapes. In many jurisdictions, sexual assault can take the form of any unwanted sexual contact. So if someone pinches a girl’s ass in a bar (bad, bad, grrr, don’t do that) but she doesn’t call the cops, then that goes in the same statistic as “unreported rapes and sexual assaults.”

That’s the whole point. We can speak to the fact that accusations of rape made in surveys are higher than accusations of rape made to the police. But that’s it, the rest becomes speculation. And when we include crimes-that-aren’t-rape in a bid to understand the under-reporting of only-the-crime-that-is-rape, we’ve well and truly gone off the rails.

But the claim wasn’t that rape is just under-reported, but that if it were correctly reported it would reach parity (or exceed?) the incidence of male victims of violent crimes.

Look at it this way – what’s the benefit to anyone from survey respondents lying about having been abducted by aliens but not telling the police?
(See the problem?)

I’ll note, again, that the NCVS uses the metric of “rape or sexual assault”. That’s a pretty massive “or” right there.

Oh, and in the NCVS 2006 report, they stated that over half of all violent crimes and crimes against property went unreported.

You were asking about that upthread, I think.

Yes, you like to make shit up.
All I have to do to prove that “women will come forward with false accusations” is to show more than one woman who has. It’s stupid-crazy, even for you, to deny that it ever happens at all. Now, we could discuss various studies and identify the actual percentages, but to claim that it’s false that women sometimes come forward with false accusations shows that your argument is, simply, hysterical.

249

Bullshit. Or more importantly you miss the point.

A culture where: Sex is almost a hobby. Women are treated like property. Violence is just another tool. “Men” (and “women”) arent held responsible for their actions. Just do what feels right. Ignoring laws is no big deal. Birth control is an afterthought. Familial and local social pressure to behave properly is low to non-existent (or seen as a plot by the man to infringe on your right to be free). Single and or very young and or poor parents are the norm. Schools where students, not teachers are the ones in control. And probably a bunch of other crap.

I’d submit that the more of those factors you have and the stronger/more common they are the more likely rapes are going to occur and the more likely it is to happen to younger girls.

Now maybe the stats don’t bear that out, but offhand I sure can’t see how those factors would make things better rape wise.

250

Actually, the part you quoted went on to add in the next sentence -

The context was talking about why we talked about the victim’s parents and not the rapist’s parents. The reason for this is that the rapist is an adult and responsible for himself, while the girl was neither.

Regards,
Shodan

251

I was, and that’s a damn good cite. So by NCVS numbers, it seems like we’re looking at a >50% violent crime underreporting rate and something like a 65% sexual crime underreporting rate. That’s not as big a discrepancy as I’d been previously given to believe–but then again, casual google searches tend to give the 1999 numbers, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see that gap closing over time.

252

But remember, even then they’re conflating rape with sexual assault. That’s a huge difference.

253

Sex is not rape. Sex is not rape. Sex is not rape. Sexual openness has nothing to do with rape.

Granted. How is a 50s morality where women’s sexuality is kept under lock and key LESS treating women like property?

I refer you to my dilemma that SA keeps ignoring: Do you watch war movies or cowboy movies? Do they make you more likely to shoot someone?

Certainly a problem, but birth control is unrelated to rape.

Define “properly”. I suspect your definition will be very different from mine; I suspect neither definition will involve rape being acceptable.

From BabyCenter: “In 2005, the average age of first-time moms when they gave birth was 25.2. In 2006, it dropped a bit for the first time since this stat was first measured in 1968 – to 25” Unfortunately it’s not possible to go back to the 50s, but the average age of mother when her first is born is on the general rise.

If it’s pop-cultural, why are rape rates per capita specifically still 3x as high as the 1960s high when murder rates are back down to the 1960s rate? Because all the pop culture I see that objectifies women also condones murder and armed robbery to get what you want.

254

I am not getting into this argument, as it would require me to adjudicate how violated someone might have felt by a sexual assault as opposed to a rape. When I have time I’m going to check to see what levels of sexual assault are included–I suspect highly that it’s only felony sexual assault, and not the “pat on the butt” stuff.

255

Here is the specific thread I was referring to:

Women and sexual assault (May 2010)

I thought it was clear that miss elizabeth was also referring to this, so I didn’t think it necessary to link directly to it, but there it is.

Men and sexual assault and RO: Woman Raped by Police Officer were both deeply horrible as well, but the first one I linked is the thread I was referring to in my post.

256

Again, you lying, disingenuous little prick I provided a cite to the survey concerned:

Again something you cut out in your selective editing. I don’t know if it is available online, and frankly don’t give a shit. Get off your fat arse and go to a library and check the book out.

257

If I had to guess, I’d say that sexual assault was even more miserably under-reported in the 1960s than it is now. Murder is one of the very few crimes which is not significantly under-reported, then or now.

258

Are you really so stupid you missed what I was saying? The person who did the hatchet jobs on NPR & PP via hidden cameras engaged in selective, dishonest editing in an attempt to twist what the subjects said. You engaged in selective, dishonest editing in an attempt to twist what I said. I therefore commented you would have a good career doing hatchet jobs on NPR & PP via hidden camera.

It’s not tough, honest. Try to keep up.

259

Why would you think it was an issue of “how violated someone might have felt” rather than the actual legal definition of sexual assault?
You can look at the survey questions yourself. They don’t qualify what exactly they mean by “sexual assault”. They certainly don’t state that only felony level conduct applies.
Their interviewer guidelines, however (cited and quoted below) show that you’re wrong.

Their interviewing manual simply classified “sexual assault” under “unwanted sexual acts.” And, in point of fact, you’d also be wrong. Yes, fondling/a slap on the ass is included in incidents of rape.

And:

Now… it was rather silly of you to call me an idiot, yes?
:smiley:

260

You said that specific posters were serving as apologists for rape. You’ve linked to entire threads. Please link to the specific posts you view as apologias for racism, or retract.

Yeah, why might anything think that you are absolutely hysterical?
I pointed out that you had not provided a link. It seems you’re so out of control that you can’t even read simple text at this point and are just sputtering with absurd insults instead. You actually seem to be disturbed enough to think that asking for an actual link was “dishonest, disingenuous blah blah” and that not quoting a non-linked citation was somehow, well, I’m not even sure what exactly you think it was, as you seem to be mostly out of your mind.

To be fair, the signal/crazy ratio is a bit too low to glean any useful information from much of your raving. It certainly read as some sort of insinuation that I was a similar type of person to those who’ve tried to shut down Planned Parenthood and NPR. Of course, if you insist that it was really based on your lunacy about how I’m dishonestly “editing” your posts, I’ll believe you.

Now, just because you’re out of your gourd and don’t even have a fingernail’s grasp on reality, I’ll cite what actually happened for those reading along. I know you’re a lost cause.

I said:

You responded with insanity about how I was using a “common tactic” and saying that “only brutal rapes count”.

Then you went on to babble that your claims about men not caring about rape weren’t really undercut because

Which, of course, had abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with your original claim (ya know, the one that I was responding to) that if men were effected by violent crime to the same degree that women are by rape, and reached the “level of dismissal from the media and the criminal justice system as rape traditionally has” (:rolleyes:) that “whatever cures suggested would not be considered 'anti-whatever zealotry[…]but would instead be seen as an understandable response, even if not agreed with, to a problem of pandemic proportions.”

In short, you are out of your everlovin’ mind.
But entertaining.