I studied various forms of martial arts in my youth, and they all had one thing in common: punches were to be thrown in a straight line, elbow rubbing against your body as it shoots outward. (As opposed to letting your elbow flange to the outside a bit, a much more natural motion that FEELS like it is more powerful, though martial arts instructors swear the straight punch is stronger.)
So, has anyone ever tested this theory out? After years of practice, I still think it’s easier to get more power by throwing your elbow out a bit, which feels like it lets you put more of your body weight behing the punch.
Is this a biological illusion? Do straight punches that hug your body really carry more kick? Or is it martial myth?
Seems to me that you can get more body twist, and thus more momentum, behind a punch that loops outside a bit, but the blow is slower and easier to block than one coming straight up the middle. Also you telegraph the outside blow a bit more compared to a straight shot.
#1 Do what works for you, this is the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Less cryptically, if your physiology is suited to one way of movement, do it that way.
#2 Excess motion is simply a waste of energy. The most efficient path is the one with least resistance.
#3 Avoid telegraphing the movement. Most fighters will watch their opponents elbow for the first sign of a punch. Keeping the elbow from rotating out limits your opponents time to react.
The only ‘exceptions’ are:
a. For pure power, a big overhand right (assuming right-handed), thrown after a short run-up will be far more powerful than any ‘static’ punch. Hence why javelin throwers and cricket bowlers take a run up. Good luck trying to land this on someone though!
b. The position of the elbow will vary depending upon the final position of the hand. Look at a western boxing Corkscrew punch or a simple hook. The elbow needs to rotate out of the body to perform the movement.
my 2 pennies worth…
The way most martial arts teach punching is that your whole body should be loose during the flight of the punch. Only at the moment o impact should the muscles be tensed, but at that point they whole body must work as one explosive unite, with all of the muscles tensing at the same time. Personally I find it a bit more difficult to generate power in this way from hooking punches. The body’s natural way of punching is to throw its weight behind the punch, but most styles of martial arts teach you to snap the punches instead. It takes a little while to get the same kind of power out of the sanped punch, but once you do, it will be infinitly more so than the body’s natural reaction. Have you ever seen video of Bruce Lee’s one inch punch? This perfectly demonstrates the principles involved.
I have studied karate with Seidokaikan here in Japan, and the only time we are told to hold our elbows close to our sides when punching is when doing a straight punch. Techniques for hooks and the like are different.
It makes sense to me to keep your elbows in when making a straight punch. IANA physiologist or physicist, so the following explanation may be kind of garbled.
If you keep your elbows in, you are more easily able to use your trapezius to aid in punching. It’s also easier to snap from the hip.
If you hold your elbow out, you are punching mainly from the shoulder, and have fewer muscles working for you.
It seems to me that the distance between target and your muscles is shorter if you keep your elbows in, thus helping the punch be more forceful.
My Sensei often brought the impact of the straight punch home with the mantra “The shortest route between two points is a straight line”, the point being that it is quicker and harder to block- it is direct unwasted power. Another point is that the ratcheting action of the “turnover” in a correct sei ken zuki is also generating power, this also ties into a correct stance.
Supposedly, Mas Oyama developed seiken zuki to such a point that he faced off and killed a charging bull with one punch delivered from zenkutsu dachi (front stance).
One of my bugbears with traditional Okinawan Karate (I studied Wado Ryu for a few years, many moons ago) is that IMHO the straight punch is taken to almost absurdity.
If you look at the western boxers jab, or the Wing Chun Kung Fu jab is that the arm follows a very natural arc that does in fact move out and then back in very slightly. This is the natural path that the arm takes when extending (try and turn on the light switch and watch your arm flick out). This give the punch a supple almost whipping motion which greatly improves the speed, and therefore impact ie F=MA.
I’ve also been taught as others in this thead have mentioned already. Punches that are the, “Streetfighter” swinging punch motion are a waste of energy, plus your opponent can see them coming a mile away. They are also very easy to block. Punches that come straight out from your hip are stronger and faster, as well as much harder to block. What makes these punches more effective are many factors: [ul]
[li]Using the hips to provide more power[/li][li]Snapping the fist over from a palm up position, when it is by your hip, to a palm down position right at the point of impact[/li][li]Pulling the non-punching hand all the way back to your side as you throw the punch[/li][/ul]Timing these and putting them together into one fluid motion can be tricky and may well be why most people don’t feel like this type of punch is more effective.
Like Dragwyr I ahve studied Tae Kwan Do/Tang Soo Do
Like my master always said. “The shortest distance between two points (your fist and your target) is a straight line.”
I believe it’s also the fastest, combined with hip rotation.
Joint damage comes into effect when you are striking something that has no give. So as long as you don’t practice punching concrete walls, you’ll be alright.
Yang style taijiquan tends to use straight punches because it’s easier to “ground” your body while doing so. That being said, however, postures such as “Fist under elbow”, “Cloud hands”, “Hit tiger”, and “Twin peaks strike the ears” can contain hook-style punches. And even in straight-arm punches, you don’t lock your elbow straight.
I’m fundamentally a Wing Chun guy, so I’m a firm believer in the straight punch. That said, there is no right answer. Both a straight punch and a hook are weapons which have their place. If you’re fighting a Wing Chun guy, he’s going to be much stronger blocking your straight punches than your hooks, so hooks might be a good tactic. If you’re fighting a boxer, the situation might reverse. If you’re squared off, a straight punch is fast and powerful. If you get spun away from your target, a hook might be the shortest distance to connect.
Many martial artists tend to get dogmatic about their techniques. One generation, a teacher says “straight punches are very strong”. His students teach “straight punches are the strongest”. Their students teach “straight punches are the only way, all others are useless”. Reciting their version of what they were taught doesn’t make it true.
From a tactical standpoint, I think you shouldn’t even care which is the most powerful and should train both for their different applications. Throwing the most powerful punch possible is not necessarily superior to picking an appropriate punch that will get past a block and connect. Of course I’m a chain-punching fool, so I’m hardly objective about that particular tactic.
As far as generating power, I can’t answer. I’ve seen a lot of studies where people measured the force/pressure/energy of a punch, but I don’t recall any controlled comparisons between straight and hook punches. From a body mechanics standpoint, you generate power differently for the two techniques and I know you can train yourself to throw a very powerful punch either way. I’d be very interested to see if anyone has done scientific studies on this, but I’d still maintain that it’s academic at best and has very little application to combat effectiveness.
I’ve never understood how this is supposed to help. Back in my Shotokan days, we punched like this and it was…slightly faster than if I held my fist palm-down the entire time, but as soon as I switched styles and started throwing boxing-style crosses, I’ve never thought about going back.
At one point, I read an article that had math to make your head hurt and they determined that the twisting effect is, at best, negligible. Some day I will find that article again, but in the mean time, empirical practice w/my heavy bag says boxing cross wins.
IMO this is the crux and can be applied to the whole of martial arts (including boxing). None of the martial arts moves are instinctive, they have to be learnt and then practised constantly so they are second nature.
A person with no martial arts training will fight in the familiar street fighting style because that’s the easiest and most obvious. Martial arts try to finesse this and get you to change what would be your natural style (street fighting). It does this because of sound principles ie that a straight punch is better because of the reasons mentioned above:
it allows greater use of your hips. All punches and kicks come from the hips.
it’s the shortest distance between two points
it’s harder to block
The problem is that because this style of fighting is a departure from what you would “naturally” do then you need to be good at it for it to work. ie you have to do it properly. If you don’t do it properly then it won’t have the devastating effect that it should theoretically have. Learning martial arts is a matter of overcoming what you would “naturally” tend to do and learning new techniques instead. Not easy and requires constant practice.
So basically, if you find you are getting more power out of a “roundhouse” punch than out of a straight punch then you aren’t doing it right. It’s not the martial art that’s wrong, it’s you. The theory isn’t wrong, it’s the practice.
I’m not being critical - it’s not easy to do it right. It may take some people years of practice before the light switches on and they suddenly start to catch it right. That’s the problem with martial arts - it’s great in theory but if you don’t do it right then you’re better off not doing it at all. Doing it right involves getting your whole body to work in synch at just the right moment.
I’ve done wado ryu on and off all my life. I stopped about a year ago (because I didn’t have time). Before I stopped, though, I was going twice a week and I got pretty good. But since I haven’t done any in a year my level has dropped considerably and I wouldn’t trust myself to do anything right. When I was doing it regularly I could land a spinning back kick on any spot you cared to pick, I would land the kick within an inch of the spot you picked on a punchbag. Now, I’d be lucky to hit the punchbag at all. You need constant practice.
So if you find that any martial arts routine isn’t working. It’s more likely that you aren’t doing it right than that there’s something wrong with the routine.
Just my opinion, but I think the above would be the “official” martial arts response to the question. If you don’t keep up the practice then you lapse back into bad habits (although you may still be able to pull off the odd surprise trick or two in a crisis).
I remember watching a documentary about Bruce Lee, and he did a demonstration about a “one inch punch”, which literally sent a guy flying about 6 feet backwards. It was strange. If that’s any indication about the martial arts creed about punching with elbow tucked in, it seems to work. I’ve only seen guys fly from a punch in the movies…but wait, it was a movie I saw this in, purportedly a docu, but I hope it was on the level!
The one-inch-punch belongs to that category of martial arts that I place in the “of uncertain veracity” bracket.
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not questioning Bruce’s integrity or his skills. I’m sure the film is genuine but I just wonder whether it is more of a push than a punch.
Another thing I place in that bracket is the George Dillman pressure point stuff. Check out some of the video clips on this page. He LIGHTLY touches someone in two or three places (eg wrist then neck) and they keel over unconscious.
He swears that the secret is that you have to touch precisely the correct spots in precisely the right order and it will work. The order is related to the elements - Earth, Water, Fire, Air. All seems too good to believe to me but then I’ve never studied this area.
I wonder whether some kind of hypnotic suggestion may be going on. All the students WANT to believe so maybe they subconsciously assist him by helpfully going unconscious. Would it work against Bubba who has no idea what you’re doing as you lightly start to touch his wrist as he’s throwing punches at you?
I’ve been one-inch and no-inch punched by both Wing Chun and Japanese stylists, and I’d call it a punch because it’s fast. I guess whether you call it a push or a punch is a semantic arguement, but one bit of evidence that it’s a punch is that it leaves a bruise at the target. There’s no magic to it, it’s just a matter of timing and coordination. It’s more than just being rooted, but it’s nothing more than a good punch.
The pressure point stuff works, but it doesn’t work every time or on every person. I’ve seen Dillman do it at seminars, and one thing I noticed is that he hits HARD. Hard enough that I didn’t think it would matter if he hit a pressure point or not, I’d go down. IMO, martial arts is a “science” which is repeatable and can be taught (unlike an “art” which might be neither). While Dillman’s techniques are undoubtably effective when he does them, they appear to fail somewhat on both the repeatable and teachable criteria.
Ryukyu Kempo practitioner here (not Dillman’s style, but Taika Oyata’s) with a slight hijack:
The pressure-point techniques do work (speaking from personal experience), but Dillman’s a fraud (also from experience). I second what micco said about him hitting HARD. You’ll also notice that he doesn’t do much in real time - he blocks an attack and then stops, his uki unmoving, and then will hit him (the uki), repeatedly, while he (Dillman) explains what he’s trying to accomplish. He uses his arm like a ballbat, which is counter to the conecpt of pressure-point techniques.
Why would you start a punch with your fist down by your hip? That would leave your head exposed - wouldn’t you want to protect your head first, and then think about punching? Likewise, I would rather keep my non-punching hand up near my head rather than pulling it back - my head’s where the other fellow is most likely going to be aiming his blows.