My experience is not great. I’m 32 years old , 200 pounds and in excellent shape. I was a mediocre boxer in College. A roommate taught me about ten different judo moves that I feel confident with. A couple of throws, an armlock, a couple of chokes, and some defenses when you get knocked down.
After college I wanted to stay in shape and took Tae Kwan do for about 6 weeks before I quit in disgust (I don’t wish to impugne anybody’s specialty. I’m sure there are excellent dojos out there. This wasn’t one of them.)
I’ve played the attacker in a women’s self-defense course, (yeah, I’m hell against women half my size.)
I’ve also been in a fight or two.
I am by no means an expert, and I know enough just enough to have a very healthy fear of real world confrontations.
I have a couple of general observations, that I’d like to hear refuted or supported by those who know (or think they do.)
There really isn’t much substitute for size, power, and speed.
I had the opportunity to spar with somebody who thought they were a real badass because they were a blackbelt in wing chung (or something sounding similar.) What happened was that he hit me a lot more than I hit him (We were doing full contact,) but the shots had little impact. Boxing taught me how to take and deliver a punch. After a couple of shots to the midsection the guy was down with the wind knocked out of him. It was pretty easy, and as I said, I’m not especially gifted. My conclusion was that there was a lot of false bravado attached to this blackbelt that had little bearing in the real world. I imagine that there is a lot of this out there.
I think kicking attacks are pretty ridiculous. It’s my understanding that most were designed as a method of unseating someone on horseback, and were kind of a last resort. I found them to be pretty slow, easy to block, and left the kicker pretty vulnerable. A little practice, and most are easy to defend against (knee attacks and foot stops seem to be the big ones to worry about.) Of course there are exceptions, such as a surprise attack, or as a defense if you get knocked to the ground. The Wing chung guy didn’t kick but this latter observation was from the Tae Kwan Do class.
This thread was inspired by a discussion in general questions where the ridiculous assertion was made that a gifted, but average sized martial artist of ten years of age could defeat an unskilled but average sized thirty year old.
It seems to me that many dojos are equipping people with the false and potentially dangerous belief that they are hell on wheels because they have a belt, and are ready to take on all uninitiated comers.
I am sure that there are many serious practitioners out there. It is not my intent to degradate their skill, training and commitment. In fact, I am targetting just such individuals for a thoughtful response if they’d be willing to share it.
I hope this thread is received in the light it was intended.
I feel like we are are talking about cars and you just said:
“There really isn’t much substitute for wheels, an engine and a transmission.”
You have kind of nailed down the important stuff. I think experience and training also weigh in heavily. If the fight drags on, conditioning is going to be a factor also.
IMHO, I think conditioning goes last out of all those. If you know what you are doing the fight really shouldn’t last more than a couple of seconds after the first punch.
(defensive fighting, not sparring)
I think sparring is the singularly most important thing you can do in martial arts. If you spar constantly, you will cut years off your training. Forget all the martial art movie jumbo, it all comes down to the way you move your body in response to your attacker.
You either can avoid (evade) attacks and land your own, or you can’t. If you have training, you will know strikes (holds) designed to end the fight.
I agree, most of the time. I have no-where near the skill to hurt you by kicking you in the head, but if you charged me, I might mess up your knee pretty good. In my self defense class we always trained to kick from the hip bone down.
This made sparring a bitch :), but made it a lot more applicable on the street.
We also did a lot of sweeps. While these really aren’t kicks, they kind of are. Putting someone on their back can end the fight if they smack their head on the pavement.
I think some kid has been watching too much Ninja Turtles. Only a kid could actually believe that.
Spar, spar, spar…and then spar some more. I think for the most part, the Dojos that wind’em up and send’em out are run by less than competent teachers. I have seen dojos that do not let their students spar for a year or more.
I got the crap knocked out of me the first day!!!
I think that lesser teachers know that they may not be able to handle the students if they spar with them too much. If you get a teacher that trains and spars with his students, you have a better chance of having a good teacher.
I’m just happy to have a non-political thread to debate on
As far as sparring goes, I have reservations. If it’s three quarters or full contact I think it has value, but is also potentially dangerous. Less than that, and it becomes like the Wing CHung guy who seemd like he had great technique, but didn’t know how to deliver any oomph behind his attacks, and couldn’t handle a hit.
While this fellow managed to make contact with my arms in an attempt to block. There wasn’t anything behind that either. Physically he seemed strong enough, I don’t think he was ready for any real force behind an attack. I felt the same way at the Dojo, though I admit this is not enough experience to draw a conclusion from, I get the feeling there is a lot of this out there.
I agree. I checked out a bunch of schools before I joined one. After you spar, it is hard to respect another school until you can spar them and feel each other out.
My teacher was a full contact fighter in his youth and comes from a good system. Our school goes down to visit his master’s school every so often. They are a large school and have open sparring sessions. They do tournaments, but are not really “point fighters.”
I’m a little older than I used to be :), so I’m not as gung-ho about those sessions as I used to be. But if was going to prison for whatever reason and had several months to prep for it, I would spend all my time there sparring. Nothing beats it for realism.
Once Glitch gets here, I am betting he is going to go into the adrenaline, mind-set part of the fight. I haven’t had the chance to read some of the stuff he likes, but it sounds interesting.
I’m not Glitch, but I have instructor’s rank in several styles and a somewhat violent youth to draw from. I was in many bar/street/schoolyard fights in my teens and young twenties. I was better than some, not as good as others. I suffered broken bones, broken teeth and a couple of cuts, but no stabs or bullet wounds. I rarely lost a one-on-one confrontation (though I did not always win. I consider escape to be a draw, even if I run like hell.) Melees were always a luck-of-the-draw situation. Most of my more serious injuries came from melees. When I was 15, I began taking martial arts. I cared nothing for the spiritual or mental deveopment, I just wanted combat skills. I became a more flexible and slightly quicker thug, but that’s about it. In a fight, I had a couple of extra tricks, but I relied far more on my instincts and natural aggressiveness than technique.
Military service, better teachers and a somewhat delayed maturation led to a great decrease in teh number of fights I got into during my 20s. I started teaching, fought full contact for a while, and learned to internalize the art instead of trying to “master” it. I did some bouncer and security work while in college, and I found my training invaluable. More than anything else, it gave me the awareness to understand where a threat migt come from and the confidence to control the situation without violence whenever possible. The five or 6 times that I had to use force, I was able to restrain and remove the attacker without major injury to either of us.
The techniques I favor are close trapping, long jabs, short power punches, locks that target large joints (elbow, not wrist or finger), open hand tachniques when striking neck and face, closed fist when attacking torso or skull. I kick to enter or enforce distance, but my targets are shin, knee, hip, inner or outer thigh. A successful kick is one that destroys the integrity of an opponent’s stance and/or movement. “The legs open the door, the hands go through.” (Inside the ring, of course, the rules were different.)
In my 20s I was also attacked by a drunk with a knife and a “friend” with a baseball bat. I did not escape without marks, but I was able to disarm each of them. I do not believe I could have done so without the years of training with and against hand weapons.
I have been in 3 fights in my 30s. In 2 cases the assailants were drunk and thought I was an undercover cop. (Some rumors are hard to quelch in cracker Florida.) One of those two had a chain, but neither was a threat. They were slow and drunk. I was sober and extremely motivated. The third was against another black belt who thought he was living in an old movie. He was a pretty good kickboxer, but he misunderstood the nature of our confrontation.
Is there a point to this rambling? I’m not sure. I was a fighter long before I became a martial artist. Throughout my training, reflexes, experience and aggressiveness ave me an edge over many of my classmates/opponents. On the other hand, I was a thug before. I had ony two speeds, and I was unable to control a confrontation except by violence. If I was overmatched, I got hurt. Sometimes very hurt.
Do martial arts work? If you want them to. By that, I mean if you have a strong focus on developing practical technique, if you are willing to endure the drills, the contact, and the mental pressure, if you can find an instructor that is willing to push you on a strenuous regimen and will not blow smoke up your ass and tell you a black belt makes you invincible (I had an instructor tell me after he awarded me a 2nd Dan that I could beat Mike Tyson now. I left him soon after.) At some point, though, you have to actually fight. You will never know until that moment comes how your mind will react to the adrenalin surge, the time compression, the sensory overload, the fear and the rage. It is not possible to create this atmosphere in a Dojo, but it is possible to skirt the edges. If your reason for training is to feel physically confident in a violent confrontation, then you need to occassionally walk very close to that edge.
Strenght, speed, reflexes and conditioning help, too.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
I’ve witnessed a lot of violence. But I’ve never been in any violent confrontations. I generally find a way to back out, or I bluff well enough so the other backs out.
When I was a little boy (pre-teen), I was very violent. I would punch and push around my classmates. I also mistreated animals. As I grew older and more sensitive, I began to feel a lot of empathy. During my twenties, I was witness to a lot of violent confrontations. But I never involved myself for fear. I have three fears: the fear of getting hurt, the fear of hurting others, and the fear that I will do neither and embarrass myself. I sometimes have a rage inside of me to such degree that I could really kill a person with my bare hands (or with a handy bludgeoning tool.) I really don’t think any technical skill is needed to commit true violence. The will to commit is sufficient.
I was very passive in my twenties. I’ve just turned thirty. Now I feel that physical violence, implicit or explicit, is truly needed to move the hearts of men. Men respond to the physical. The only time a man can have confidence against another man is if he can subdue him in some way.
I’ve decided to learn martial arts. I would very much like to spar. I believe it’s the best way to get to the nitty-gritty.
No, not really. Of course, all the speed, power and size won’t do you any good if you are frozen stiff (believe it because it WILL happen, the only question is for how long?). So mindset and predetermination of action is critical.
Predetermination of action is an aspect of scenario based training. It is a “game” you play with yourself (get your mind out of the gutter). For example, if I am in my car and a person puts a gun to the window I am going to hit the gas. Repeat it to yourself, over and over again. Believe it. Live it. Picture it in your mind. Gun in the window, me hit gas. Note, I don’t care what is in front of me (except a pedestrian). If I cause an accident, fine by me, the criminal isn’t going to stick around with all these people gawking at an accident. He runs, my insurance pays the damage, and even if they don’t, it is better than being dead.
Anyway, bottom line, the bigger, stronger, faster guy is going to beat the smaller, weaker, slower guy.
Don’t get me started. Too late…
You’re darn right there is a lot of that going on out there. A very large proportion of schools have black belts who have never struck a person or been struck by somebody (well, nothing more than a nice light strike to denote a point … not this isn’t putting down ALL point fighting. Watch the Uechi-Ryu Championships some time. Holy ****. Those guys are animals).
I can just hear the excuses now. Probably something along the lines of “Well, my technique is so deadly that if I used it against I was afraid I would severely injure you or kill you.” I call it “Martial Arts = Hammer of Thor” syndrome.
Martial arts techniques are not vastly more powerful than a “normal” punch or kick. Repeat not vastly more powerful. More power, yes, but not the Hammer of Thor. With a lot of good practice martial arts techniques can become very strong, but the training required to reach this level is both long and beyond what the average person is willing to put into it.
Furthermore, in the West there is still very little knowledge of good martial technique. A lot of it still stems from the returning US servicemen, and frankly, but they really didn’t understand martial arts. Drop by your friendly neighbourhood dojo sometime and watch them hit the heavy bag (if they even bother, we would want to hurt our poor knuckles and feet on the mean nasty canvas bag now would we?). A lot of the time you’ll see the bag fly through the air to the praise of ye high and mighty sensei. So what? You can push the heavy bag with your foot? I remember watching my instructor at 50 hit the heavy bag with a crescent kick and watch the thing hardly move by split in two. That is martial arts power.
Anyway, bottom line, an all to common occurance is for ye high and mighty sensei to proclaim “This technique is deadly and will fell the mightiest of foes” and the students believe because they want to believe.
Second bottom line, your average martial artists doesn’t do enough hitting or being hit.
At this is true for Tae Kwon Do kicks. Not necessarily true for all styles. Tae Kwon Do does a lot of jumping kicks which could, as a last resort, be used to dismount a horseman. I bet lots of ancient Koreans, who would likely have learnt Hwrang-Do (the ancient precursor to Tae Kwon Do which was created in the 50s) got skewered while attempting this but anyway.
Kicks are not useless. They have their time and place, but that time and place is few and far between. The best thing about a kick is that it lets you engage a target at a distance. Sadly, most fights don’t start nor end up at a distance. However, if you are at range kicks can be used to great effect. I would never kick above the chest, and at the chest with the utmost rarity.
Leg kicks, which at close range look like knee strikes but technically aren’t, can also be put to great use. But even there the proper target area is small, and under the stress of a serious fight becomes vanishingly hard to hit on purpose. When I was mugged I must have kicked his legs 4 or 5 times and I did cause them to buckle (more because I can break a baseball bat with a kick than because I hit anywhere vital … see the importance of power above). In the dojo, I can hit the dummy or opponent in the right spot everytime. If I practice enough, maybe eventually hitting that spot will be so instinctive I won’t need to even aim. Then that technique will be truly deadly on the street.
Hey, watch what you say about all karate belts, PAL! They are very useful for lowering your casket into the ground after you get yourself killed.
Read “Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn. A great book on this subject.
Freedom:
Sorry, but I rather SBT, SBT, SBT … and then SBT some more. SBT being scenario based training. Bar none this is the most effective means of learning self defense. Of course, it happens to also include fighting (sparring) but it puts into a context and visualization that is lacking in sparring and hence must be provided by the student, and only then if sensei has bothered to tell the student about visualization during sparring, and only then if sensei happened to know if the first place.
Scylla:
Heavy sparring is no more dangerous than boxing. Of course, most Westerners don’t like the idea of somebody beating on them and actually experiencing some pain, so yeah, lots of dojos don’t encourage any kind of serious fighting. Afraid of lawsuits, and frankly afraid of losing their students. But if you want to learn how to fight you need to get hit, and you need to hit. Period. Yes, this means you will likely bleed at some point. It almost certainly means having some bruises. But here is where I have to chuckle at so-called “traditionalists”. What tradition, western or eastern? The tradition of martial arts training in the East is very different from traditional training here and now. If you want to get a good idea of what real ancient training was like take a look at the Shaolin Temple in China. THAT is martial arts
Correction, there is one better that SBT for learning to fight and that is to actually fight. Unfortunately, that is decidely impractical (and usually illegal).
I have nothing to really add to what Glitch or Spiritus have said.
When I was taking Tae Kwon Do I did not do so to learn to fight. I was there for the exercise, the conditioning, the sparring, the learning that which many others did not know. When I start back it will be for mostly the same reasons. I hope I never get into a fight. I love to spar because I find it to be a great stress relief.
I am sure there are schools that are only there to take your money. I will seek out a school like the one I attended before that seeks to teach you martial arts.
My instructor before loved it so much that often times it would only be he and I at class and let me tell you if you have a good teacher and you spar with them every class time for almost the whole 2 hours, you will improve your reflexes and your skill tremendously.
My good friend Jeffery raise a good point which I should make clear before all the posts which misunderstand what I am saying show up.
There are plenty of different reasons to learn the martial arts. Exercise, for fun, improving balance and focus, and yes, to learn to fight.
I am speaking solely from the perspective of learning to fight. This translates, in our modern world, into crime survival. As compared to the old days where it was about war, whether it be in defense of the village, temple or kingdom.
The only thing I am against in martial arts training, and I mean ANY martial arts training, is that which attempts to deceive its students whether that be purposefully or not or by omission or not.
You are correct, Glitch. My priorities were different when I was an angry young immortal. Now, any confrontation that ends with me going home is a win. Absolutely. (And isn’t it strange how many fewer confrontations I fin myself in these days? ;))
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
I would like to see jayburner construct a reasonable proof of his statement, which I, at first, felt was intended as humorous. This will probably not even be amusing, but what the heck.
Maybe I shouldn’t jump to conclusions…but it was supposed to be sarcasm btw…I’m sure if the teeming millions charged him…he would eventually go down from the sheer mass of people…
